Creating a Mentat (3.5 D&D)

[JellyPooga]

I recently aquired a copy of Shining South and as soon as I saw the Jordain Visier PrC I immiediately thought of the Mentat Assassins from Dune. Nondetection, SR, Cha-to-Saves, a Combat bonus and Eidetic memory? They were blatantly ripping the idea of a Mentat.

So, how can we incorporate this 5 level long PrC into a decent Assassin/Advisor character?

Bear in mind that the PrC forbids the casting of spells (even through a magic item), so caster classes are pretty much right out. The frustration of that is that every Class and PrC I can think of the has Bardic Knowledge or Lore (to improve his Eidetic Memory) is a caster class. Any ideas on how to circumnavigate this?

Second hurdle is making them a decent assassin. Death Attack, whilst not optimal in play, would probably be appropriate but having a good skill-set is likely more important.

I've got a couple of ideas, but I'd like to see what others come up with first.

[Eldariel]

A level of Cloistered Cleric is pretty decent for non-casters too; there are many Domains with a feat-worthy domain ability and sometimes even better (e.g. Luck) and getting two of those coupled with skillpoints and Knowledge Devotion (plus Turn Undead to fuel appropriate feats) is v. good even if you can't cast.

Rogue has a substitution level in Magic of Incarnum for Rilkans that also bypasses this, getting Lore on level 3. That's probably not as strong as spelless Cloistered Cleric though.


So yeah, some kind of Rogue-base with Cloistered Cleric and possibly going Wilderness Rogue for Hide in Plain Sight. That's...err, it.

[BobVosh]

Isn't there an ACF for bards to give up spellcasting for some form of wildshape? At least one of my friends did it. The DM may have just been allowing it, he is prone to stuff like that.

[JellyPooga]

A level of Cloistered Cleric is pretty decent for non-casters too; there are many Domains with a feat-worthy domain ability and sometimes even better (e.g. Luck) and getting two of those coupled with skillpoints and Knowledge Devotion (plus Turn Undead to fuel appropriate feats) is v. good even if you can't cast.

Rogue has a substitution level in Magic of Incarnum for Rilkans that also bypasses this, getting Lore on level 3. That's probably not as strong as spelless Cloistered Cleric though.


So yeah, some kind of Rogue-base with Cloistered Cleric and possibly going Wilderness Rogue for Hide in Plain Sight. That's...err, it.

If it weren't for the fact that Jordain Visier was Human only, that Rilkan Rogue RSL would be perfect! Sneak Attack and Bardic Knowledge? Exactly what I'm looking for.

The problem with Cloistered Cleric is that most of the really useful Domain abilities are based on Cleric Level. Without being able to use the spells, I'm going to want to minimise the amout of Cleric levels in this build because the main focus of the class is spellcasting...which I can't use. It'd be a bit like taking Ninja or Rogue and not being able to use Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike.

[Thurbane]

The Paragnostic Apostle (CC) will get you Lore, and you don't actually need casting to get in. You can enter with 3rd level Spell-like Abilities, which you can get with the Fey/Fiendish heritage feats (CM) or as a Factotum (8).

[Eldariel]

If it weren't for the fact that Jordain Visier was Human only, that Rilkan Rogue RSL would be perfect! Sneak Attack and Bardic Knowledge? Exactly what I'm looking for.

The problem with Cloistered Cleric is that most of the really useful Domain abilities are based on Cleric Level.

Oh, there's a bunch that aren't. Luck-domain is a good one. The Devotions are really nice too, particularly Travel Devotion, Animal Devotion, Air Devotion, Law Devotion, et al. Trickery Devotion is pretty nice too. Pride is awesome too; reroll nat. 1s on saving throws!

Celerity increases your landspeed, Mind adds to your social skills, and honestly, Travel's "Freedom of Movement" is great even if you can only use it for one round/day; that's enough to get out of the predicament you're in.

And if none of those work for you, there's always Time-domain for Improved Initiative and such.

[JellyPooga]

I've had another look at the Jordain Visier PrC and I'm increasingly coming round to the idea that a Cloistered Cleric might work...most of the fluff around Halruua is against arcane magic. Whilst the Visier class prevents him from using any magic, I don't see why he couldn't be trained as a Cleric. The requirements of the PrC even stipulate that you must have one of the Halruuan accepted Deities (usually Mystra or Azuth) as a your patron deity.

With that in mind, a Cloistered Cleric 5/Paragnotic Apostle 5/Jordain Visier 5 would have a formidable Lore/Eidetic Memory modifier (in fact, due to the wording of Paragnostic Apostles Lore ability, he'd have a +20 to Lore checks, but only +15 to Eidetic Memory checks).

Unfortunately, he wouldn't be much of an assassin. Without being able to use his 10 levels of spellcasting, he's pretty much left with a crappy BAB, low HD and a couple of Domain abilities. In fact, about the only he does have going for him is his Lore ability...not too impressive. I think this one will have to go back to the drawing board.

[Eldariel]

Just dip one level in Cloistered Cleric. Cloistered Cleric gets Lore which qualifies you. Put the rest in Rogue/Factotum/Whatever and profit.

[Radar]

So the class bans spellcasting. What about manifesting (for example)? It might fit the Mentat, if you pick the powers right.

[JellyPooga]

Just dip one level in Cloistered Cleric. Cloistered Cleric gets Lore which qualifies you. Put the rest in Rogue/Factotum/Whatever and profit.

Lore isn't a requirement of the Visier PrC, it'd just be nice to have another class with it to complement the Eidetic Memory ability...a 1-level dip into Cloistered Cleric wouldn't be that useful really.

@Radar : Whilst the PrC doesn't explicitly ban psionics (or binding, shadowcasting, truenaming or any other casting variant), I don't think they're part of the Forgotten Realms setting as standard...so I would imagine that should psionics be incorporated, that the psionic-magic transparancy would extend to preclude their use too. Strictly speaking, a Warlock or DFA could quite happily be a Jordain Visier and use their Invocations all day long without breaking the terms of the ban, however, I don't think that is in-keeping with the spirit of the PrC (though the idea of an evil Warlock with Beguiling Influence and the Charm invocation to cover his tracks is quite tempting).

[Eldariel]

Mindflayers are pretty integral to FR and pretty psionic...

You could be a Changeling with Racial Adaptation and qualify as both, Human and Rilkan for the Rogue sub level and the Vizier-class (as long as you don't need to keep the qualifications all the time; and of course, Changeling is originally Eberron-based, but no reason they couldn't exist in any settings with Doppelgangers).

[JellyPooga]

Mindflayers are pretty integral to FR and pretty psionic...

I thought they used the "spell-like abilities/spellcasting as psionic powers" (as found in the MM) as their psionics standard. I believe that introducing the XPH is a variant to the usual FR setting. I could be wrong though.

You could be a Changeling with Racial Adaptation and qualify as both, Human and Rilkan for the Rogue sub level and the Vizier-class (as long as you don't need to keep the qualifications all the time; and of course, Changeling is originally Eberron-based, but no reason they couldn't exist in any settings with Doppelgangers).

I'm not sure how Racial Adaption works, but if I only qualify as Human or Rilkan part of the time, I think I'll only have the benefit of the racial-only things part of the time (peculiar as it seems).

[oxinabox]

My first thought was factotum, but that's no good, they can only steal the bardic knowledge abity as there capstone.
following that line i went to chameleon, but i don't think they get it.
continueing i come to Binder. (they pratically are just a Base class version of the chameleon, in alot of ways)
There is a vestage with Bardic Knowledge.

But you've mentioned you don't want to go that way...

[Cyclocone]

@Radar : Whilst the PrC doesn't explicitly ban psionics (or binding, shadowcasting, truenaming or any other casting variant), I don't think they're part of the Forgotten Realms setting as standard.

Psionics is, although I'm not sure about the others. There's an entire house of drow psions who feature prominently in the Drivve'l books.
An Ardent could work pretty well, thanks to Practiced Manifester.

I suspect the feat Eldariel is thinking about is Interracial Immolation Racial Emulation from Races of Eberron (and here), although I'm not much of an expert on Ebberon.