Class vs class tests

[Tyndmyr]

Now, Im not taking signups yet...I simply want to discuss *how* this can be fairly done.

By what measure can we experimentally measure classes against each other? Pure theoretical comparisons seem to ultimately degenerate into increasingly improbable "Well, of COURSE I'd have already prepared immunity to the obscure poison only found in one line of splatbook Y!", so they are unlikely to get us anywhere. Obviously, we *have* to run tests...but what do we test?

Here are my suggestions, feel free to suggest modifications.

1. Need at least 4 volunteers of each class being tested against each other. One offs are too subject to luck.

2. Default level of testing is level 10, being at the midpoint of character development. For specific cases, different levels can be used.

3. No infinite combos. Saying "It's not infinite, it's just arbitrarily high" is grounds for being beaten. Otherwise, Raw is god. Other obviously broken things as determined via Test of Spite or The Arena may also be banned.

4. Participants shall be randomly paired off to be measured against each other.

5. Match type is either vs or solo against an encounter. Encounters are determined randomly in accordance with the book, and each pair of participants shall face the same challenge.

6. Location shall be determined randomly(need a good table), and again, each pair will fight in identical locations.

7. Participants can spend WBL at will. Participants can also elect to start at a lower level due to ECL, spending xp on magic items, etc.

Thoughts?

Im thinking Fighters vs Monks might be an interesting first match, for maximum drama.

[Boci]

What’s the ruling on the guidelines for custom magic items? I've seen quite a few of these types of builds reliant on them.

[Yukitsu]

Since the item creation tables are guidelines, and not hard rules, it's pretty much impossible to say that they can be used in this sort of test. It's hard to objectively gauge the value of any effect when doing these sorts of comparisons.

[Tyndmyr]

I lean torwards allowing them, since they're core, and frankly, most people are familiar with using them.

I think regardless of their inclusion or exclusion, it should balance out by virtue of both sides having them. And whichever way is standard, people might wish to run usual tests occasionally...it's just easier to have a standard set of rules and deviate from there rather than arguing over every single detail every time.

[sofawall]

I lean torwards allowing them, since they're core, and frankly, most people are familiar with using them.

I think regardless of their inclusion or exclusion, it should balance out by virtue of both sides having them. And whichever way is standard, people might wish to run usual tests occasionally...it's just easier to have a standard set of rules and deviate from there rather than arguing over every single detail every time.

Wait, that's like me saying "Sure, you can use that! It's in Serpent Kingdoms after all!"

[Sinfire Titan]

I lean torwards allowing them, since they're core, and frankly, most people are familiar with using them.

I think regardless of their inclusion or exclusion, it should balance out by virtue of both sides having them. And whichever way is standard, people might wish to run usual tests occasionally...it's just easier to have a standard set of rules and deviate from there rather than arguing over every single detail every time.

The problem comes from the crafting system itself, not who has access to it. Price reducers are easy to add if the caster is the one making the item, making it easier on their WBL (not that they can't bypass that too). Noncasters have a harder time doing that.

It's better to not allow them.

[Tyndmyr]

Hmmm, would it be ok to include them if we don't allow player crafting? After all, crafting for one-offs is kind of odd anyhow.

Giving casters an advantages in WBL isn't really the goal, but I want to be as flexible as possible in allowing different builds.

[Sinfire Titan]

Hmmm, would it be ok to include them if we don't allow player crafting? After all, crafting for one-offs is kind of odd anyhow.

Giving casters an advantages in WBL isn't really the goal, but I want to be as flexible as possible in allowing different builds.

Not really. I honestly recommend not using it at all.

[Yukitsu]

When a particular build absolutely "must" have custom item X, then you're not testing classes any more. You're testing who can cover more bases with their wealth.

[truemane]

I agree that custom items should not be allowed. The goal is to reduce the variables as much as is reasonable. If everyone is limited to the same list of options, it makes it easier to decide how much impact comes from use of those options.

Although, to make this work, you need to be very careful in your success/failure criteria.

[Ernir]

I think regardless of their inclusion or exclusion, it should balance out by virtue of both sides having them.

Some classes lean much more heavily on them than others, though. Truenamer, I am looking at you!

And on RAWIsLaw, the extent to which you will want to follow that depends on the optimization experience of your testers, I'd say. Something like the ToS set is necessary if people are going to be pushing the boundaries.

Your biggest problem, though, will be to make sure the classes are being put to the test, not items, feats, or spells.
(In the Wizard vs. Fighter tests that I am running now, we aren't testing the classes. We are testing 13th level Wizard casting vs. 20th level WBL on a useless chassis.)

[Yukitsu]

Hey, I wasn't just fighting a WBL on a useless chassis! He also had a monk!

[Kurald Galain]

I don't think any class v class test would actually put a stop to the debate, though. Still, they're fun to watch. Your rules seem mostly fair, but note that the Test of Spite has a huge banned list by now.

(edit) oh yeah, with respect to class v class tests (as opposed to character v character tests), you have to define "class". Is a Wizard/Archmage still a wizard? How about a Fighter/Dungeon Crasher? Is a Monk/Druid considered a monk or a druid, or both? And so forth.

[Tyndmyr]

When a particular build absolutely "must" have custom item X, then you're not testing classes any more. You're testing who can cover more bases with their wealth.

This is an excellent point. While synergy with magic items is a good thing for a class to have, it's not the only aspect.

No custom items it is.

[Tyndmyr]

I don't think any class v class test would actually put a stop to the debate, though. Still, they're fun to watch. Your rules seem mostly fair, but note that the Test of Spite has a huge banned list by now.

(edit) oh yeah, with respect to class v class tests (as opposed to character v character tests), you have to define "class". Is a Wizard/Archmage still a wizard? How about a Fighter/Dungeon Crasher? Is a Monk/Druid considered a monk or a druid, or both? And so forth.

I would tend to say that for purposes of, say, Fighter vrs Monk, a Monk/Drunken Master would count as a Monk, but a Monk/Druid would not.

In other words, available PrCs for a class are part of what makes a class good or bad. The presence of other base classes is not, and should not be used in such a test.

[Defiant]

I create a ring of Mage Armour for 2000gp, according to the item creation rules (spell level 1 * caster level 1 * continuous 2000).

[Defiant]

No custom items it is.

Exactly what is and what isn't a custom item? Anything not directly listed in the Wondrous Items list from the SRD?

[Eldariel]

Exactly what is and what isn't a custom item? Anything not directly listed in the Wondrous Items list from the SRD?

If you have to go to the item creation guidelines and start counting the costs of the item from there, it's a custom item. The ones listed are not custom.

[Boci]

Exactly what is and what isn't a custom item? Anything not directly listed in the Wondrous Items list from the SRD?

Anything made using the guidlines in the DMG.

[Yukitsu]

Anything that doesn't have an explicit listing in any of the magic item lists in the source books that are allowed would be custom.

[Claudius Maximus]

How about allowing custom potions and wands, and other such items?

[Tyndmyr]

Exactly what is and what isn't a custom item? Anything not directly listed in the Wondrous Items list from the SRD?

Anything listed as an item is not custom, and thus, is available. Anything that explicitly sends you to your DM for permission first *is* custom.

I believe neither the scrolls nor wands require DM permission, and have explicit prices given, so those should be fine...there's a rather large volume of premade magic items out there, especially in MiC, so it shouldn't be *that* limiting.

[Boci]

How about allowing custom potions and wands, and other such items?

I'm pretty sure the RAW are that any non-personal spell 3rd level or lower can be a potion and any spell 4th or lower can be a wand.

[sofawall]

But can you make them at higher-than-minimum caster level?

[Tyndmyr]

I believe the DMG explicitly says that you can.

Now, Im wondering on the PC vs Mob part of this. As for what the mob is, randomly rolling one of all the mobs from the various MMs of the appropriate CL is doable...but is a simple PC vs one mob too alpha-strike biased, or should we go for something based on the standard reccomended daily allowance of ass-kicking?

[Claudius Maximus]

What will be the medium of these tests? PVP matches? Arena battles vs. level appropriate encounters? A dungeon crawl like The Monkening? A solo dungeon crawl? Something else? All of the above?

[Yukitsu]

I think whatever people happen to think is most valid at the time. I know I've done all of the above before, and have won them with wizards.

Doing all of those gives you the most complete picture, as opposed to just knowing that class X can or can't do challenge X, Y or Z.

[Tyndmyr]

I think all of the above is best. Or, more likely, to keep the test from taking too long, randomly get one of the above. Note...randomly determined post character-creation. So, if you have a team of five fighters and five monks, you create your characters, then get randomly paired off. A random challenge or two is rolled up for each pair.

If one can defeat the challenge and the other can not, it's a clear win. If both can defeat it, then speed of defeating it is probably the tie breaker. If the number of rounds are the same...damage taken can be the tie breaker. If that's still equal...it's a tie.

If neither can defeat the challenges, the one who got further/got the most kills is victorious.

[Faleldir]

I Craft an item of continuous True Strike for 8000 GP. What? It's Core!

[Boci]

I Craft an item of continuous True Strike for 8000 GP. What? It's Core!

Too bad such an item has already been forbiden.