(Pathfinder/3.5) Swordsage Build Advice

[Flayerman]

So my group is starting (yet another) new game of Pathfinder. My GM was kind enough to allow me to do both a swordsage (converted forward) and a Werewolf (template).

We roll 5d6 for stats, so my stats look pretty ridiculous.

I'm going for Master of Nine in the end (I'll qualify by level 10), so I'm curious as to what maneuvers, stances, and so on are best. Right now I have a heavy focus on Shadow Hand. I'm also wondering how many ninth-level techniques I can pick up by my maximum level (19th), and any other general advice people have.

I'm actually trying not to powergame for this game, as the rest of the group isn't full of powergamers, and I'm getting a bit sick of being the king of the group. So I'm not looking for optimization. Just general advice.

Also, I'm taking Superior Unarmed Strike next level, so please don't offer me "get a better weapon" unless it keeps to the unarmed theme.

Male Human Werewolf Swordsage 4

AC 26 = 10 + 4 + 5 + 7
HP: 51/51

STR 19
DEX 18
CON 18
INT 17
WIS 20
CHA 13

Attack Bonus: +3
Attacks: Unarmed Strike (+8, 1d3+4)

Initiative: +9

Saves:
FORT 4 = 1 + 3
REF 8 = 4 + 4
WILL 9 = 4 + 5

Skills:
Acrobatics 4+3+4 = 11
Diplomacy 4+0+3 = 7
Heal 4+3+5 = 12
Intimidate 4+3+1 = 8
Knowledge (Nature) 4+3+3 = 10
Martial Lore 4+3+3 = 10
Perception 4+3+5 = 12
Sense Motive 4+3+5 = 12
Stealth 4+3+4 = 11
Swim 4+3+4 = 11

Feats:
Improved Initiative
Improved Unarmed Strike
Adaptive Style

Items:
Glamered Elven Chain +1 (+6, +4, check penalty -1)

Special Abilities:
Low-Light Vision
Scent
Change Shape (Su)
Curse of Lycanthropy (Su)
Lycanthropic Empathy (Ex)
AC Bonus
Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus: Setting Sun)
Discipline Focus (Insightful Strikes: Shadow Hand)
Quick to Act +1
9 maneuvers known
2 stances known
5 maneuvers readied.


Maneuvers Known:

Desert Wind
Burning Blade
Fire Riposte

Diamond Mind
Sapphire Nightmare Blade

Shadow Hand
Clinging Shadow Strike
Shadow Blade Technique
Drain Vitality

Stone Dragon
Charging Minotaur
Mountain Hammer

Setting Sun
Counter Charge


Stances Known:
Step of the Wind
Stance of Clarity

[Akal Saris]

Well, your DM seems nice, so maybe ask about the unarmed swordsage variant listed in the book, saving you a feat? (Though you'd change to monk AC in no armor instead of light)

Otherwise, I'd a big fan of the Shadow Blade feat, which would add your Dex to your damage on top of your strength, which is quite handy.

I'd also trade Drain Vitality for Shadow Jaunt - teleporting every other round is awesome!

I'm surprised you're not going for more tiger claw maneuvers - the flavor would go quite well with a werewolf, after all.

[Flayerman]

Tiger Claw's next on my list of things to pick up, but a lot of the low-level maneuvers are things I can already do (IIRC there's one that lets me jump to move and one that lets me use scent), so I was putting it off in favor of a better spread of techniques.

Also, how do I teleport every other round? Don't I have to take a full-round action to recover such a maneuver?

And does Shadow Blade stack with Insightful Strikes?

[avr]

Insightful strike stacks with nothing IIRC. A mundane punch does the same damage as a +5 holy greatsword using Insightful Strike, so I don't think the damage bonus from the Shadow Blade feat will apply. You don't even seem to have the Concentration skill which the damage of Insightful Strike is based off - is that a Pathfinder thing? - so they may not be that useful for you.

The cute thing about Sudden Leap is that it's movement which takes a swift action. Hence, full attack and movement in the same round. You don't have this or Pounce in that template you linked to.

Shadow jaunt really is useful, especially out of combat. You're right that recovering manoeuvres is a pain for a swordsage though.

[Flayerman]

Oh wow, I didn't notice it was a swift action. That IS really nice!

And, insightful strike is my wisdom modifier to damage for the chosen discipline, isn't it?

Yes, Pathfinder removes Concentration. The GM's letting me use Martial Lore instead for related rolls.

[ghashxx]

Something I'm putting together with swordsage is using a +4 swortshord of defending in my off hand and just dumping all the enhancement into my AC. Granted I just happen to have the cash, but it's definitely a nice boost to my AC that I can also use to attack when necessary.
A maneuver that's really nice to get at those pesky sniping wizards is the 5th level Desert Wind counter "Leaping Flame". Also since swordsage doesn't have the best fort save I've found the 3rd level Diamond Mind counter "Mind Over Body" to be amazing.

[Akal Saris]

Tiger Claw's next on my list of things to pick up, but a lot of the low-level maneuvers are things I can already do (IIRC there's one that lets me jump to move and one that lets me use scent), so I was putting it off in favor of a better spread of techniques.

Also, how do I teleport every other round? Don't I have to take a full-round action to recover such a maneuver?

And does Shadow Blade stack with Insightful Strikes?

Avr was thinking of the concentration check to damage maneuver. The swordsage's wis to dmg will stack with Shadow Blade - so in your case, you'd deal 1d6+13 damage a hit after getting IUS (or is it 1d4 for a non-monk?) so long as you chose a discipline with US as a favored weapon.

You teleport as a standard,next round recover as a full-round action, teleport as a standard, recover as a full-round action, etc - every other round. The first combat I had as a swordsage was fighting on the edge of a waterfall - my character was the only one able to move back and forth from the bottom of the waterfall to the top :)

[Master_Rahl22]

Shadow Hand is my favorite Swordsage-only school. My other favorites are Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, and Tiger Claw, so you get 3 out of the 4. Shadow Blade says you use Dex instead of Strength on damage, IIRC. I would recommend that you save the last level or two of Master of Nine for levels 17, 18, and 19 so you can grab more of those tasty level 9 maneuvers. Make sure you don't ignore Tiger Claw for too long. One of my favorite maneuvers from it is 7th level, Swooping Dragon Strike. It requires 3 Tiger Claw maneuvers, and deals an extra 10d6 damage and Fort save or stun. The thing is, the save DC is your Jump check, and by that level you can easily have it in the 30s or 40s. Make sure you're also not neglecting Diamond Mind so you can pick up Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip and Time Stands Still. Read both of those. Go ahead, I'll wait. Yeah, you want that.

[Flayerman]

I've wanted Time Stands Still since I -read- Tome of Battle. That's good advice on saving the last levels of Master of Nine for 17-19; the more level 9 maneuvers I can get, the better, obviously.

If I take Swordsage after the first level of Master of Nine, will I still be able to select from any discipline?

[Darrin]

If I take Swordsage after the first level of Master of Nine, will I still be able to select from any discipline?

No. Swordsages can only select maneuvers from their six disciplines. Anything you pick up from Mo9 can still count for prereqs, however.

I've wanted Time Stands Still since I -read- Tome of Battle. That's good advice on saving the last levels of Master of Nine for 17-19; the more level 9 maneuvers I can get, the better, obviously.

Packing in 9th level maneuvers can get very complicated... I managed to finagle a build that fit in all nine, but it's rather fiddly... Heaven of Nine. I was actually two feats short, but you can get there with either two flaws, retraining a couple Martial Stances, Psychic Reformation, or Dark Chaos Shuffle.

Some tips:

17) Mo9 2nd = 1 Maneuver + 1 Stance
18) Mo9 3rd = 2 Maneuvers + Martial Study feat
19) Mo9 4th = 1 Maneuver + 1 Stance
20) Mo9 5th = 2 Maneuvers

That could be 7 out of 9. Fortunately, some of the 9th level maneuvers are worth taking more than the others (Tornado Throw may have size issues, can't trip something more than one size larger than you, Five-Shadow-Kitchen-Sink-Whatever is way too fiddly and allows a Fort save, Feral Death Blow allows a Fort save and won't work on constructs/elementals/oozes/plants/undead, Inferno Blast has friendly fire/resistance/immunity issues).

Mountain Tombstone Strike has no prereqs other than IL.

You may be able to use magic items (such as Crown of the White Raven) to help qualify as prereqs (the Becoming Reshar build uses this trick to get all 9th level maneuvers). A wand of Heroics could also do wonders, although you can only take Martial Study three times... but then there's all those high-level stances.

Once you've learned a maneuver, you can swap out or lose the prereqs and you don't lose the maneuver.

Master of Nine requires several not-so-useful feats. You can use Expeditious Dodge (or even Midnight Dodge if you swing that way) instead of plain-ol'-vanilla Dodge. Improved Initiative is available via a magic item (Dragonfly Medallion, A&EG p. 131, 29760 GP, also Bracers of Blinding Strike in Magic of Faerun for way too much money) or the Time Domain. Blind-Fight is available via the Darkness domain (also, Corsair's Eyepatch in MIC, but only for 1 minute). A one-level dip into Cleric can get you both Improved Initiative and Blind-Fight, and also lets you qualify for Ruby Knight Vindicator (if you can get your DM to waive or bend the Wee-Jas requirement).

[Flayerman]

Your build relies on taking Martial Study more than three times. But Martial Study can only be taken three times. Is that errata?

[Eldariel]

Your build relies on taking Martial Study more than three times. But Martial Study can only be taken three times. Is that errata?

You can just substitute Martial Stance over some instead to work around that; all you need are the prerequisites for the level 9s, after all.

[Bakkan]

Shadow Blade says you use Dex instead of Strength on damage, IIRC.

This is an example of text vs. table. The table entry says that your Dex modifier replaces your Str modifier (with "Shadow Sun" weapons) (p30). On the other hand, the text for the Shadow Blade feat says you can add your Dex mod as "a bonus on melee damage" (p 32).

I believe that the text should win out in this case, since there are fairly severe restrictions on when the feat applies (see your copy of the book for more details - I don't want to get in trouble for copying too much).

[Darrin]

Your build relies on taking Martial Study more than three times. But Martial Study can only be taken three times. Is that errata?

My build? Only takes Martial Study three times. The rest are all Martial Stances, which does not have a limit.

[Akal Saris]

My favorite swordsage schools are Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw, hands down. My first (and longest-running) swordsage character ended up taking those two almost exclusively, though I'd like to make a Desert Wind focused character sometime as well. And maybe one built around concentration checks and diamond mind/psionics too.

Damn it, swordsages are too much fun!