ACFs that make you Weaker

[oxinabox]

So there are some Alternate class features that just make you stonger with no downside.
Kalsha Soulknife, and raptorian fighter* come to mind

*give up heavy armour profiecny for the ability to fly in medium load - you can't fly in med/heavy armour (unless BULK stong) so without this you'ld be wearing light...

Then there are some that just make you weaker.

For example the one from Cityscape web enhancment (IIRC)
that lets you trade the Druids animal compainion - one of the most powerful class features out - (Fighter as class feature, ftw)
For a familar as a wizard of you druid lvl.
familars - proably the most ignored class feature of all time.

what other weakening ACF's are there?

[Fan]

shapeshift Variant Druid.

Battle Sorc.

Savage Bard.

[HCL]

Savage bard is fine, it gives you a good fort save.

Sorcerer's divine companion in Complete Champion is way less useful than a familiar

[Bayar]

Spell-less ranger.

[Fan]

Spell-less ranger.

Rangers use spells?

[Longcat]

Shapeshift Druid, it's one of the biggest nerfs there is.
Any Immediate Magic other than Abrupt Jaunt.
Most of the Wizard ACFs in UA, where you trade in Bonus spells from Specialisation, Familiar or your bonus feats. Notable exceptions are Rapid Summoning (excellent for Malconvoker) and Chains of Disbelief (good for Shadowcraft Mage).

Rangers use spells?

Arrow Mind, Bladestorm, Arrow Storm, to name a few.

[Kulture]

the rogue variant (brute?)

Lose sneak attack, gain bonus feats as a fighter....

wow. Thanks for that.


I'll throw in charisma being the spell-thief casting stat, since it's just one of a long line of charisma casters that makes shoddy sense. (I want assassin level synergy, damn it!)

[Blackfang108]

the rogue variant (brute?)

Lose sneak attack, gain bonus feats as a fighter....

wow. Thanks for that.

Don't forget, you also don't qualify for the Weapon Specialization chain anymore, so it's even worse than for a Fighter.

[Natael]

shapeshift Variant Druid.

That's why I force the druids in my game to take the SS variant, helps with balance a bit.

[Sinfire Titan]

Spell-less ranger.

The Complete Warrior version, yes. The Complete Champion version is good for a TWFing Swift Hunter build, if slightly weaker than actual spellcasting.



Spell-less Pally however...

[Raewyn]

Any Immediate Magic other than Abrupt Jaunt.

Hrm... is there an ACF that's better for a necromancer? (I thought the Immediate Magic was pretty weaksauce, but I thought it was still better than 'an animal that your enemies can kill to drain your XP')

[Longcat]

Hrm... is there an ACF that's better for a necromancer? (I thought the Immediate Magic was pretty weaksauce, but I thought it was still better than 'an animal that your enemies can kill to drain your XP')

In UA, you can get an undead minion that scales with your necromancer levels. If it dies, it only costs 100gp to replace, and you lose no xp.

Although I'd rather keep my familiar, since you can get nice stuff like Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability.

[Curmudgeon]

The Complete Warrior version, yes. The Complete Champion version is good for a TWFing Swift Hunter build, if slightly weaker than actual spellcasting.

Champion of the Wild (Complete Champion) also works well with the archery Ranger/Scout, as it delivers all the feat prerequisites for Greater Manyshot. Take a normal move and you're good for 4 bowshots with Improved Skirmish (normal +2d6) damage on every shot.

[John Campbell]

Spell-less ranger.

Eh. My current character makes good use of Champion of the Wild. I'm doing a mounted archer, and I had to jump through so many hoops to get a viable animal companion to ride that my spellcasting would've been late and weak anyway. Yeah, sure, arrow storm is a nice spell... but when you get one casting per day at the level that the real casters are getting wish and miracle, it's kind of lacking something. I'd rather have the mess of feats.

[Amphetryon]

Eh. My current character makes good use of Champion of the Wild. I'm doing a mounted archer, and I had to jump through so many hoops to get a viable animal companion to ride that my spellcasting would've been late and weak anyway. Yeah, sure, arrow storm is a nice spell... but when you get one casting per day at the level that the real casters are getting wish and miracle, it's kind of lacking something. I'd rather have the mess of feats.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Bayar refers to the CW version, which is not nearly so nice as the CChamp, Champion of the Wild, version of a spell-less ranger.

[Tavar]

Spell less paladin is also useful if you're going to be PrC'ing out of Paladin, considering that alot of decent PrC for them lack spell casting advancement, and do require feat heavy builds.

The UA druid that gives up Wild Shape for monk abilities is pretty sucktastic.

The domain wizard seems pretty weak.

[Malacode]

The Wizard ACF that trades the bonus feat list with that of a fighter. What is my wizard going to do with Combat Expertise? Whirlwind Attack? Two-Weapon Fighting? I'd rather take Spell Mastery, thank-you very much. Actual Metamagic feats are even better.

Unless you're building a Gish, it's not worth it. Even then, you have to think carefully.

[Zaydos]

Spell less paladin is also useful if you're going to be PrC'ing out of Paladin, considering that alot of decent PrC for them lack spell casting advancement, and do require feat heavy builds.

The UA druid that gives up Wild Shape for monk abilities is pretty sucktastic.

The domain wizard seems pretty weak.

What's weak about the domain wizard? You give up the ability to specialize for an extra spell of every level per day and in your spellbook. It might be a predetermined spell but it's still better than nothing. It allows you to retain the versatility you lose by going specialist or focused specialist while giving you an extra spell of every level.

[Tavar]

Cause this is DnD. Specialization >>> Versatility. It's easy to not loose anything of value when specializing. Hell, even Focused Specialization is often a good deal.

[Lycanthromancer]

the rogue variant (brute?)

Lose sneak attack, gain bonus feats as a fighter....

wow. Thanks for that.

Still better in-play than a fighter is.

And awesome in gestalt.

Also quite good for multiclassing.

[Dixieboy]

Setting (As in "Desert", "Frozen wasteland", "Ocean") specific ACFs count?

'cus there's those things that lets you breathe underwater for X rounds, swim faster, or resist mirages/desert heat, which seems mighty weaksauce unless you are in quite specific situations alot.

Since they probably don't:
Spell sense seems a bit useless, and the Half Elf Fighter doesn't seem to be worth it.

[Starbuck_II]

Cause this is DnD. Specialization >>> Versatility. It's easy to not loose anything of value when specializing. Hell, even Focused Specialization is often a good deal.

What about Druids? They are powerful because they have versatility.

[Boci]

The Wizard ACF that trades the bonus feat list with that of a fighter. What is my wizard going to do with Combat Expertise? Whirlwind Attack? Two-Weapon Fighting? I'd rather take Spell Mastery, thank-you very much. Actual Metamagic feats are even better.

Unless you're building a Gish, it's not worth it. Even then, you have to think carefully.

Good for swapping scribe scroll for improved initiative if you going to go Master Specialist as soon as possibly and thus do not need wizard levels beyond 3rd.

[Grumman]

Unless you're building a Gish, it's not worth it. Even then, you have to think carefully.

Assuming you're PrCing out at 5th level, it lets you trade Scribe Scroll and one wizard feat for two fighter feats. Considering how rarely I use consumables, I'd definitely get more use out of the fighter feats.

[Inhuman Bot]

I'd say... Drow of the Underdark's Drow Bard. Lose bardic knowledge, gain poison use.

Or the Favored Soul ACF the replaces energy resistance with tremorsense. Out to 5 feet. With like.. a 3/day use.

[Boci]

I'd say... Drow of the Underdark's Drow Bard. Lose bardic knowledge, gain poison use.

Same with the rogue. Trapfinding for poison use. And they are in the same frigging book that has the feat "better poison use"

[Starbuck_II]

Same with the rogue. Trapfinding for poison use. And they are in the same frigging book that has the feat "better poison use"

You can get Trapfinding back with a feat though. Bardic Knowledge is harder to obtain.

[Boci]

You can get Trapfinding back with a feat though. Bardic Knowledge is harder to obtain.

True. But never-the-less, posion use is worth less than a feat with that sourcebook.

[Starscream]

Bards have Healing Hymn which costs them Fascinate. This means they lose Suggestion and Mass Suggestion as well, which is a terrible sacrifice.

They also have Inspire Turning which is far too situational. Turning undead isn't something you typically do all the time, and no way the cleric should need the bard's help.

[Akal Saris]

Eh, I've used that sub before - if you only have 1 level of bard then the poison use can be better - though there are better things to swap bardic knowledge for anyhow.

Spontaneous Summoning for the conjurer is pretty awful (swap out a spell to spontaneously cast a SM spell 1 level lower, lose bonus spells).

Half-Elf Fighter and Half-Orc Paladin (Races of Destiny) are both quite disappointing, especially considering that Half-Elf Bard and Half-Orc Druid are both useful and cool.