Can Orcs use Half-Orc Racial Sub levels?

[Talking Donkey]

Specifically, can a Orc, Desert (UA pg. 13) Use the Barbarian Half-Orc Racial Substitution level at level two? Assuming he is a Barbarian?

Does this change is he use the Barbarian Variant in (Complete Champion pg. 46) Spirit Totem: Lion Barbarian?

Any answers would be greatly appreciated.

[Frog Dragon]

Orc != Half-Orc
Rules say no.

[Eldariel]

Orcs are not Half-Orcs. Half-Orcs can use Orc substitutions, not the other way around.

[deuxhero]

RAW no, RAMS yes (unless it is based on being from a mix of cultures rather than orciness).

[LibraryOgre]

RAW, probably not. RAMS (Rules As Makes Sense)? I don't see why not. WotC wasn't falling over themselves to provide such things for non-standard races, so it's close enough.

[sofawall]

My acronym spreads...

Anyway, if you fluff half-orc sub levels as tapping into their dual-heritage to make a stronger whole, than no. If you fluff it as them getting more in touch with their orcish side, then hell yes.

RAW says no, however.

[Talking Donkey]

Are there any Orc Racial Substitution levels?

Edit: I thought it would take a day or so for a response... you guys are quick.

[Prak]

Are there any Orc Racial Substitution levels?

Edit: I thought it would take a day or so for a response... you guys are quick.

I think there's at least one class. Not Sure though.

[sofawall]

First google response for: orc racial sub level barbarian

Anyway, Crystalkeep says no.

EDIT: No barbarian sub levels anyway.

[Person_Man]

Nope. Though the opposite works - a half-orc can do anything that an orc can do.

[Darrin]

If the orc took the Human Heritage feat (Races of Destiny), I'd allow it.

[Talking Donkey]

If the orc took the Human Heritage feat (Races of Destiny), I'd allow it.

But if the Orc had a human heritage... wouldn't he technically be half-orc already?

[Bayar]

If the orc took the Human Heritage feat (Races of Destiny), I'd allow it.

Orcs dont qualify for human heritage. They are neither half-humans, nor human descended.

[ravenkith]

Nah, human heritage could mean that way way way way back in his ancestry he had some human blood.

Which means he's still got the full-blooded orciness, but he now can get into half orc stuff.

It's a pretty smart fix, actually, because orc, as it stands, is pretty much out in the cold for dedicated PRC support, except maybe eye of grumsh, IIRC (CW).

EDIT: It's all DM fodder and house rulage anyways. Depends on how much your DM wants to be a ****/is terrified of your build concept.

[Prak]

The usual Orc build is "Fighter two points stronger than a similar build."

I don't care what you're doing, there ain't many scary Orc builds, except thought experiments from bored CO's.

[Eon]

dang acronyms, what is RAW?

[hamishspence]

Rules As Written.

[Eon]

thanks.
and i don't know enough to give an opinion on the first post...

[Darrin]

I don't care what you're doing, there ain't many scary Orc builds, except thought experiments from bored CO's.

They make very decent uberchargers because they can get another PA multiplier with Headlong Rush (Races of Faerun).

[Prak]

one of my favorite Orc concepts is the dumb paladin. Sounds like great fun to play, but I like my skills too much...

[Roderick_BR]

Depends: If the substitution levels are *specifically* for half-orcs, then no, but the other way around, yes.
Orcs counts as either/both humand and/or orcs, when picking specific orc or human abilities/PrCs/subst.levels, etc, but unless there's some special rule, humans and orcs wouldn't be able to get half-orc exclusive stuff.

[LibraryOgre]

Orcs dont qualify for human heritage. They are neither half-humans, nor human descended.

Eh, I wouldn't be so sure about that. While the orcish race, itself, is not human descended, the greater mental capabilities of half-orcs tend to put them in positions of responsibility and power, and thus give them better-than-average breeding opportunities. While most would be statted as "orcs", I would be willing to bet that there are relatively few orcs who don't have at least enough human blood that they can claim that they're 1/64 human (i.e. someone within the last 4-5 generations was human).

[sofawall]

Depends: If the substitution levels are *specifically* for half-orcs, then no, but the other way around, yes.
Half-Orcs counts as either/both humand and/or orcs, when picking specific orc or human abilities/PrCs/subst.levels, etc, but unless there's some special rule, humans and orcs wouldn't be able to get half-orc exclusive stuff.

Fixed it for you. No, really, I actually fixed it.

[Darrin]

Orcs dont qualify for human heritage. They are neither half-humans, nor human descended.

Gawd forbid I try and bring real-world science into a game where a Half-Ogre Half-Vampire Half-Elemental Half-Golem Half-Dragon (red) Half-Dragon (gold) Half-Dragon (purple) is legal...

"Well, hey there, Little Timmy... y'see, mommy got *really drunk* one night on Dwarven Gutsmasher ale... anyway, let's just say that's one of the reasons we don't allow Persisted Shapechange in the house anymore..."

We have empirical evidence that Orcs and Humans can interbreed (without wizardly "Owl + Bear" shenanigans). So, their genomes are close enough that they most likely represent sub-species that descended from a common ancestor that could be reasonably called "human".

The sidebar on page 150 discusses offering the human subtype to human-descended races, mostly for the purposes of Aasimar and Tieflings. It also says if you don't offer this, you could use the Human Heritage feat as another (optional) alternative. It doesn't mention Orcs directly, but I can't see how it really breaks anything in the game.

[bosssmiley]

My acronym spreads...

It's a good acronym.

I'm wholly on the side of Orcs using Half-Orc racial sub levels. But then I'm the guy who extended racial paragon classes into the kind of archetypal racial ability spread that 4E alluded to in the bait-and-switch previews.

[Gametime]

Gawd forbid I try and bring real-world science into a game where a Half-Ogre Half-Vampire Half-Elemental Half-Golem Half-Dragon (red) Half-Dragon (gold) Half-Dragon (purple) is legal...

"Well, hey there, Little Timmy... y'see, mommy got *really drunk* one night on Dwarven Gutsmasher ale... anyway, let's just say that's one of the reasons we don't allow Persisted Shapechange in the house anymore..."

We have empirical evidence that Orcs and Humans can interbreed (without wizardly "Owl + Bear" shenanigans). So, their genomes are close enough that they most likely represent sub-species that descended from a common ancestor that could be reasonably called "human".

The sidebar on page 150 discusses offering the human subtype to human-descended races, mostly for the purposes of Aasimar and Tieflings. It also says if you don't offer this, you could use the Human Heritage feat as another (optional) alternative. It doesn't mention Orcs directly, but I can't see how it really breaks anything in the game.

Without trying to sound catty, I feel obliged to note that whether it breaks anything has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it is allowed by the rules.

I doubt any reasonable DM would ban half-orc options to an orc character, but what a reasonable DM does and what the rulebooks allow are very often not the same thing. We aren't discussing individual DM practices, here - just the rules.

[Curmudgeon]

While I can't help with racial substitution levels, I did come up with a few things that require either Orc or Half-Orc blood.

• Menacing Demeanor feat (Races of Destiny) (req: Orc blood or Orc subtype): You gain a +4 bonus on Intimidate checks.
• Menacing Brute Prc (Races of Destiny, pages 123-126) (req: Half-Orc, Iron Will feat): 5 levels of moderate boosts to Intimidate use.
• Headlong Rush feat (Races of Faerûn): (req: Orc or Half-Orc): provoke AoOs all along charge path, but deal double damage.

[Farlion]

What comes to my mind:

One of my players ( a half-orc ) once said to an orc shaman:

Player: "I'm a half-orc"

Shaman: "Me also half-orc. Other half orc as well"





But I think by RAW being orc excludes you from being half-orc, since they are two distinct races.


Cheers,
Farlion

[daggaz]

What comes to my mind:

One of my players ( a half-orc ) once said to an orc shaman:

Player: "I'm a half-orc"

Shaman: "Me also half-orc. Other half orc as well"





But I think by RAW being orc excludes you from being half-orc, since they are two distinct races.


Cheers,
Farlion

You mean, you are the Giant in disguise and the player in question was Therkla? And the shaman was actually the Chief of the barbarian orcs on the island which the OOTS visited where Elan got them to worship Banjo and later his brother Vurkle, the God of Slapstick?

We do read the comic here on these forums, you know..

[Farlion]

We do read the comic here on these forums, you know..

You do, I don't. Sorry for boring you with something my players and I came up with.

I'm actually not surprised to see someone else come up with that though (and I assume others have also come up with this joke as well). I can't proof you, that I didn't steal it, but you'll just have to trust me, that I have as much humor and math knowledge to come up with this on my own.

What I posted above is actually an english translation (we play in german), but I have to admit, I chose similar words than in you comic (although this might also just incline, that baby speech for orcs doesn't leave you with alot of choices)

Cheers,
Farlion