Feat tax? (4e)

[nyjastul69]

What exactly is a feat tax?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

What exactly is a feat tax?

A feat that every character has to take, essentially something so vital the only reason to give it as a feat rather than a class feature is to burn their feat slot.

[Kylarra]

A feat that every character has to take, essentially something so vital the only reason to give it as a feat rather than a class feature is to burn their feat slot.

aka the expertise feats.

[taltamir]

What are the expertise feats?

Quicken magic falls neatly into the feat tax role. every caster needs it.

[Kylarra]

What are the expertise feats?

Quicken magic falls neatly into the feat tax role. every caster needs it.

Weapon/implement/focused expertise. They give +1 per tier to hit with the chosen implement/weapon. It fixes the math since defenses scale faster than hit bonuses.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

What are the expertise feats?

Quicken magic falls neatly into the feat tax role. every caster needs it.

4.x. The designers messed up on the balance(what else is new), so instead of making to-hit scale properly, they added a feat that gave serious(for 4.x) bonuses to-hit that every character basically has to take. They're hated because they both are a massive waste of a feat slot and nerf TWF and Gish builds(both of which need to take the feat twice) even further.

[nyjastul69]

Okay so it's essentially a 'fix'. Why not just give it to a PC for free instead of forcing a char to spend a slot they may want to spend otherwise?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Okay so it's essentially a 'fix'. Why not just give to a PC for free instead of forcing a char to spend a slot they may want to spend otherwise?

You spot the issue.

[Tiki Snakes]

4.x. The designers messed up on the balance(what else is new), so instead of making to-hit scale properly, they added a feat that gave serious(for 4.x) bonuses to-hit that every character basically has to take. They're hated because they both are a massive waste of a feat slot and nerf TWF and Gish builds(both of which need to take the feat twice) even further.

Twice? >_>
I mean, I'm not really sold on the 'Have to take' bit to start with, but I really can't see why a Two Weapon Fighter would need to take them twice. If they are just using weapons, all they need to do is stick to one thematic catagory of weapons at most, (heavy blades, axes, etc). If they are gish, just pick a signiture weapon and take Focused Expertise?

Is there something I'm missing here?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Twice? >_>
I mean, I'm not really sold on the 'Have to take' bit to start with, but I really can't see why a Two Weapon Fighter would need to take them twice. If they are just using weapons, all they need to do is stick to one thematic catagory of weapons at most, (heavy blades, axes, etc). If they are gish, just pick a signiture weapon and take Focused Expertise?

Is there something I'm missing here?

Not sure, I have never played 4.x, I just remember that being mentioned as one of the issues when it came out. For TWFers, I assume they wanted to be able to go axe/hammer or sword/dagger. For the Gishes, I have no clue how 4.x works.

[taltamir]

Okay so it's essentially a 'fix'. Why not just give it to a PC for free instead of forcing a char to spend a slot they may want to spend otherwise?

you can... example: my current DM says "everyone has able learner"
As a DM giving everyone a certain feat works out fine.

[nyjastul69]

you can... example: my current DM says "everyone has able learner"
As a DM giving everyone a certain feat works out fine.

That was already my plan. ;)
As a side note: where are the aforementioned feats located?

I only own the original core rules.

[Mando Knight]

Not sure, I have never played 4.x, I just remember that being mentioned as one of the issues when it came out. For TWFers, I assume they wanted to be able to go axe/hammer or sword/dagger. For the Gishes, I have no clue how 4.x works.

First off, it's not 4.anything yet. It's just 4e.
TWF characters rarely, if ever, use two different types of weapons. It increases the number of feats you have to take if you want to get all of the weapons' tricks anyway. I usually see doubled up versions of the same weapon: pair of short swords, pair of hand axes, pair of bastard swords, double sword, double axe, etc. are much more common than waraxe & warhammer, to the point where I've never seen the latter in play.

Gishes pretty much begin and end at Bards and Swordmages for now, who pick Focused Expertise (favorite sword type) and ensure that the enchantment on the sword allows them to use it as an implement for any class they dip into that doesn't already let them use it as an implement.

That was already my plan. ;)

On a side note: where are the aforementioned feats located?
I only own the original core rules.

Able Learner is not a 4e feat, Implement and Weapon Expertise are in PHB2, and Focused Expertise is in the PHB3 preview material (DDI subscribers only).

[Tequila Sunrise]

Okay so it's essentially a 'fix'. Why not just give it to a PC for free instead of forcing a char to spend a slot they may want to spend otherwise?

That's a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, PC defenses don't scale properly either -- which WotC has of course, in its infinite wisdom, created even more feat taxes for.

Fact is, there are at least half a dozen feats on top of the Expertises that are arguably feat taxes -- the eight paragon and epic NAD boosters, which simultaneously don't do enough to fix the math and over-fix it, and then there's Armor Spec which most people don't have a problem with despite the fact it gives an unconditional bonus to AC.

Anyway if you work out the math, the actual bonuses that PCs lose by 30th level are:

4 from attacks, and even more from Bull Rush, Grab and similar attacks that don't get enhancement bonuses.

2 from AC, assuming masterwork armor but not Armor Spec

4 from NADs

People have come up with all sorts of ways to fix the math, but they usually aren't quite right because the missing numbers don't fit into the tiers nicely. I of course have my own way of fixing the math, which is superior IMO.

PS: It's not gishes or dual wielders who are generally hurt even more by feat taxes; it's players who for whatever reason want to use both a weapon and an implement, or w/w or i/i. Paladins and clerics for example can use both weapons and holy symbols, but to do both effectively you've gotta take two Expertises. Wizards have a feat at paragon levels that allow them to wield a second implement, but to do it effectively you've gotta pay another tax. The half-elf has a racial ability that lets them use an out-of-class power, which usually means a second type of weapon/implement, which means you've gotta pay another tax...

[nyjastul69]

What about quicken magic? Thanks for bearing with a 4e newbie.

[Tequila Sunrise]

What about quicken magic? Thanks for bearing with a 4e newbie.

There is no quicken magic/spell in 4e. You get a standard action, a move, a minor and that's it 99% of the time.

[taltamir]

when I said quicken and able learner I was making 3.5 references... should have pointed that out, sorry. And I never meant to suggest able learner is a feat tax.

[nyjastul69]

My ignorance is evaporating, albeit the rate is awfully slow. Thanks for the responses Tequilla Sunrise your elaboration was particularly enlightening.

I will continue to display my ignorance and ask: NAD's are non-armor class defenses?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I will continue to display my ignorance and ask: NAD's are non-armor class defenses?

Right. They're called that not because of the acronym, but because a good hit in the NADs will make you cry.

[Mando Knight]

Right. They're called that not because of the acronym, but because a good hit in the NADs will make you cry.

It's actually both. I don't know which reason was used first, but they're both rather accurate descriptions of what they are.

[nyjastul69]

That pretty much clarifies everything (oh how I wish). Sorry to ll yer username TS. I've never been able to do TaKillYa well.

[Thajocoth]

Quicken is a feat in 4e's Arcane Power.

Quickened Spellcasting - Prereq: 21st level, any Arcane class.
Pick an at-will power you can use as a standard action. You get to use it as a minor 1/encounter.

[Kurald Galain]

If they are gish, just pick a signiture weapon and take Focused Expertise?

Is there something I'm missing here?

That works, but Focused Expertise was released several months after the other two expertise feats, so in the time between (or for any DM that doesn't allow all the sourcebooks) gishes may be screwed.

As it stands, it only screws over e.g. fighters who want to switch weapons occasionally, or wizards who want to swap between staffs and orbs (you know, the second implement feat from the PHB).

[nyjastul69]

I just noticed I used you're v. your in this thread. I don't why, but it was too gross not to edit.

[Starsinger]

That works, but Focused Expertise was released several months after the other two expertise feats, so in the time between (or for any DM that doesn't allow all the sourcebooks) gishes may be screwed.

As it stands, it only screws over e.g. fighters who want to switch weapons occasionally, or wizards who want to swap between staffs and orbs (you know, the second implement feat from the PHB).

Instead of grabbing a second Implement Expertise, the wizard should grab Dual Implement Spellcaster and gain the enhancement bonus of his second implement to damage anyways, and then he's using both everyturn so he can use whichever Implement Mastery he needs, and only needs one expertise feat. So really that just leaves fighters

[Kurald Galain]

Instead of grabbing a second Implement Expertise, the wizard should grab Dual Implement Spellcaster and gain the enhancement bonus of his second implement to damage anyways,

That's only if the wizard is interested in maximizing his damage (in which case, why not play a sorcerer?) If he wants to use a secondary implement for its special power, or for e.g. wand of accuracy, then the expertise doesn't work.

[Akal Saris]

Feat taxes exist in 3.5 and Pathfinder too, as a sidenote. Adaptive Style for the Swordsage, Natural Spell for the druid, and Extra Music for the pathfinder bard are all feats that should simply have been part of the base class to begin with. Arguably, able learner fits in there too, considering that Pathfinder makes it a base part of every class with its revamped skills list.

As a sidenote, what irritates me about 4E feats is that they are generally underwhelming or feat taxes at least through heroic tier, which is where all of my games are currently played. It makes it very frustrating for me to try and build a strong character, because my feats don't feel like they add much to the character, so gaining feats lacks that enjoyable sense of gaining in power that I get from 3E/PF. Though I love Obtain Familiar :P

[Artanis]

As a sidenote, what irritates me about 4E feats is that they are generally underwhelming or feat taxes at least through heroic tier, which is where all of my games are currently played. It makes it very frustrating for me to try and build a strong character, because my feats don't feel like they add much to the character, so gaining feats lacks that enjoyable sense of gaining in power that I get from 3E/PF. Though I love Obtain Familiar :P

Well, the "underwhelming" part is deliberate, or at the very least what was the original plan. Feats are/were supposed to be little boosts for just a bit of an edge in one area or another, while the sorts of truly character-defining feats that you find in 3e (with Fighters being one of the biggest examples) were melded into the power system. Want to be able to Cleave? In 3e that's a feat, in 4e that's a power. That sort of stuff.

Of course, whether by design or by accident, that's changing, and changing fast, but that's another discussion

[KillianHawkeye]

As a sidenote, what irritates me about 4E feats is that they are generally underwhelming or feat taxes at least through heroic tier, which is where all of my games are currently played. It makes it very frustrating for me to try and build a strong character, because my feats don't feel like they add much to the character, so gaining feats lacks that enjoyable sense of gaining in power that I get from 3E/PF. Though I love Obtain Familiar :P

This is mainly because feats are not the main source of character power in 4E (that's powers). In general, all of the feats are less flashy than they were in 3.x.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Feat taxes exist in 3.5 and Pathfinder too, as a sidenote. Adaptive Style for the Swordsage, Natural Spell for the druid, and Extra Music for the pathfinder bard are all feats that should simply have been part of the base class to begin with.

I was under the impression that the general consensus was that Natural Spell shouldn't really exist. As opposed to being just a gimme.