Level adjustments for odd creatures.

[Wyvern_55]

In my newest campaign, I have a player who wants to play an ant in the worst way. He doesn't really care if it is an awakened giant ant or a formian seperated from the hive, or something similar, and so in order to help make this possible, I need a fair level adjustment.

So what would you guys say is the appropriate level adjustment for:

A Formian Warrior,

A Formian Myrmarch,

And an awakened Giant Ant Soldier?

[Myrmex]

Let the Formian worker use the spell like abilities 1/day without needing any helpers, and give it an LA +1. A little on the strong side, though.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Chit (scout)
Monstrous Humanoid
Medium
+4 Str(ant)
-2 cha(bug)
-2 wis(race was originally a hivemind)
Darkvision 60'
Light sensitivity
Dwarf depth-sense
Speed 30'
Automatic languages: Undercommon, Draconic
Bonus languages: Anything except common
+1 NA
LA 0

The Chit is a gigantic insect, often topping 5' in size. They are bipedal, with a pair of spindly but strong arms and legs tipped with 3 digits. Their mouth is mostly external parts that have trouble with many languages. They also have vestigial legs sprouting from their waist that are now useless. Their body remains segmented, and is coated in hard, chitinous plates.
The species were ants mutated magically to be the perfect slaves to a Drow city(strong, used to obedience, fast breeders who don't care about death if they get the job done). The city was sacked by Dorfs who ignored the mostly peaceful monstrous slaves, but the ants remained. They bred and spread, forming colonies throughout the underdark. These operate on Marxist lines, with all working to the best of their ability for the good of the colony, and the queen, while respected, serving less as leader and more as the voice of the people's will.
The typical colony now consists of a breeding queen who nominally rules the hive, a large majority of workers who grow crops, mine, and perform other tasks for the good of the whole, a group of warriors to defend them, and scouts who interact with the civilized world either as traders, diplomats, or often simple explorers looking for anything that would benefit the colony.

My first impression of a balanced way of getting the ant feel.

[Wyvern_55]

Chit (scout)
Monstrous Humanoid
Medium
+4 Str(ant)
-2 cha(bug)
-2 wis(race was originally a hivemind)
Darkvision 60'
Light sensitivity
Dwarf depth-sense
Speed 30'
Automatic languages: Undercommon, Draconic
Bonus languages: Anything except common
+1 NA
LA 0

Etc...

Neat, is that an original creation?

That might work for what he had in mind, perhaps with a bit of tinkering.

[DragoonWraith]

I'd say -2 Int, not -2 Wis, for being part of a hivemind. Intelligence has to do with thought, Wisdom has to do with awareness and perception - since the workers served as the hive's eyes and ears, they'd be pretty good at that. It's the thinking for themselves bit that they're weak at.

Otherwise, I'd say that looks pretty good.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I'd say -2 Int, not -2 Wis, for being part of a hivemind. Intelligence has to do with thought, Wisdom has to do with awareness and perception - since the workers served as the hive's eyes and ears, they'd be pretty good at that. It's the thinking for themselves bit that they're weak at.

Otherwise, I'd say that looks pretty good.

Could be, I basically wrote that in 5 minutes. I just hate hitting a martial or rogue type with an Int penalty. Skills are scarce enough as it is.

[BobVosh]

There is insectile in savage species. All I remember is it makes you bug like, and gives you 6 arms total. It is a template.

[Wyvern_55]

Insectile might work as well, I have added it to my growing list of possibilities.
Though I might have to tinker with it a bit in order to fit that one.

Thanks!

No extra attacks, huh? I think I would allow those extra hands for off hand attacks, with multiweapon fighting reducing penalties.

I can't find rules for using more hands than two on a single weapon though, is 1.5 STR to damage the max? does it just become impractical after that?

[Myrmex]

I can't find rules for using more hands than two on a single weapon though, is 1.5 STR to damage the max? does it just become impractical after that?

I think each additional limb adds 0.5 to the multiplier. Not sure where I saw that, though. Savage Species, maybe?

[Chineselegolas]

I think each additional limb adds 0.5 to the multiplier. Not sure where I saw that, though. Savage Species, maybe?

Indeed it is, on page 42.

Only race I could think of for being a bug is Thri-Keen. Either on page 222 Savage Species or page 73 Shining South.

[Milskidasith]

It's also useful for Girallon's Blessing. Nothing quite like four handed ubercharging for 2.5x str while power attack charging at 4:1.

[Myrmex]

Is it more efficacious to fuse multiple limbs to get a higher strength score?

[sofawall]

Is it more efficacious to fuse multiple limbs to get a higher strength score?

Depends on your Str score.

[imp_fireball]

In my newest campaign, I have a player who wants to play an ant in the worst way. He doesn't really care if it is an awakened giant ant or a formian seperated from the hive, or something similar, and so in order to help make this possible, I need a fair level adjustment.

So what would you guys say is the appropriate level adjustment for:

A Formian Warrior,

A Formian Myrmarch,

And an awakened Giant Ant Soldier?

Formian Warrior

- +4 STR, +6 DEX, +2 CON, +2 WIS

- +2 Tumble, +3 to survival checks that involve following tracks

- +5 Natural Armor

- 4 Natural Weapons, Sting (2d4+STR+Poison), 2 Claws (1d6+1/3 STR), Bite (1d4+1/3 STR); natural weapons and any weapon Formian Warrior wields are lawful aligned for purposes of overcoming DR

- All the SRD Special Qualities and Attacks

- Quadrapedal (+4 to oppose trip), 40ft. move speed, Size Medium

- 4 HD of outsider. This gives the formian warrior 12x4+INT sp, +4 BAB, +4 FORT, REF and WILL, and 2 feats.

- Formian Warriors cannot speak, although they may understand a number of languages (other than the language of their hive mind), equal to their intelligence modifier. At GM discretion, they may also read and write these languages.

- LA +4?

Formian Myrmarch

- +8 STR, +8 DEX, +8 CON, +6 INT, +6 WIS, +6 CHA

- +5 to survival checks that involve following tracks

- 2 Natural Weapons, Sting (2d4+STR+Poison; uses 3/4 STR to attack modifier), and Bite (2d6+1/2 STR; Uses 1/4 STR to attack modifier); Any Weapon Formian Myrmarch wields uses 3/4 STR modifier to attack; Natural weapons and any weapon it wields are lawful aligned for purposes of overcoming DR.

- All the SRD Special Qualities and Attacks

- Large Size, 50ft. Move Speed, Quadrapedal (+4 to resist trip)

- +15 Natural Armor

- 12 HD of outsider, giving it 19x4+INT sp, +12 BAB, +8 FORT, REF and WILL and five feats

- Myrmarchs automatically know Formian and Common

- LA +6?

Awakened Giant Ant Soldier

- +4 STR, +2 CON, +2 WIS, +1 (1d3) CHA

- 1 Natural Attack, Bite (2d4+1.5xSTR)

- 20ft. Climb, 50ft. Move, Size Medium, Quadrapedal (+4 to resist trip)

- +8 Climb (can take 10 always), +4 Survival to Track by Scent

- Special Qualities and Attacks in SRD

- +7 Natural Armor

- 2 HD of Vermin, Giving 4x4+INT sp, +1 BAB, +3 FORT and 1 feat

- Awakened Giant Ant Soldiers cannot speak or write language. They can understand a number of languages equal to their INT modifier. They do not automatically know common (although that is at GM discretion).

- +2 LA

[BooNL]

There's also Dromites. A bit like an anthropomorphic, two legged ant. They aren't as strong as formians, but their racial stats are pretty good.

[ericgrau]

Formian Worker:

Spoiler

Show

Medium size
+6 str,+6 dex, +4 con, +2 wis
4 outsider HD (d8, full BAB, 3 good saves, skill points as rogue, immune to "person" spells)
immune to cold, resist 4 others, leaving only acid which you can cover with a spell
SR 18
5 natural armor
40' speed
free DC 14 poison

Compare to Grimlock (LA 2, and well worth it in this case): stronger
Compare to Astral Deva Angel (LA 8): formian weaker due to stats, SR, natural armor, flight
Compare to Hound Archon (LA 5):
6 outsider HD
similar speed
+4 str, +0 dex, +2 con, +2 wis, +2 cha (formian much better)
At will greater teleport (much better than formian)
fewer resistances, similar SR
9 natural armor

Outside of the teleport, aura of menace (minor) and the natural armor, the formian seems significantly better than a LA 5 hound archon. Arguably the powerful 2 extra outsider HD could be a benefit to the hound archon in this case, depending on how much your group tweaks your class builds. So I'd put the formian worker at LA 5 or LA 6. Less if you always reduce the LA of all monsters to match powergamed class levels.

Formian Myrmarch: Once you add in the LA to the HD he'll be at or near level 20, so there's not much point.

Misc notes: Beware of hivemind abuse. Consider removing it for PCs, say they're not part of a hive anymore.

[Wyvern_55]

Thanks, this is all helping out quite a lot. LA 6 for the warrior sounds about right, I dare not go too far below that, as the group isn't really a power gaming sort, and that con based DC for the poison concerns me...

LA 2 for the Giant ant seems about right as well, seeing as how they would have a heck of a time with any sort of equipment.

I really didn't have any hope for the myrmarch to be honest.

The flying version of the warrior from Fiend Folio, about the same as their earthbound cousin? they are weaker physically, but they get free flying(good).

Misc notes: Beware of hivemind abuse. Consider removing it for PCs, say they're not part of a hive anymore.

Yeah, That shouldn't be an issue...I have already engineered a way to avoid that situation.

[Fluffles]

It's also useful for Girallon's Blessing. Nothing quite like four handed ubercharging for 2.5x str while power attack charging at 4:1.

Whats even better is a Tauric Insectile Thri-Kreen.

8 Arms 4.5xStr mod.

While Power attacking at 2:1 With a Keen Valorous Lance combined with being Tauric and have Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and Battle Jump.

3:1 if 3 levels of Frenzied Berserker, 4:1 if 9 levels.

And when using stuff like this, it's not to hard to get 30+ Str, so lets do some calculations.

At a Str of 30, that will make your Str mod +10. Lets use a Huge lance (Strong arm Bracers on a Large Creature)

So, base damage = 3d6+45. Now lets assume he has a BAB of 10 (For simplicities sake). Our charger will do a full power attack, leaping charge. Damage will be: 12d6+260 damage.And that is just strait up charging.

Now lets give him 3 levels of FB.
Base damage (with full PA at level 10) is: 3d6+75. When charging that turns into: 12d6+300.

Now at 9 levels of FB (still doing a BAB of 10 even though it can't happen): 3d6+85 base, 12d6+340 Damage when charging.

The most damage I've done in one hit with an uber charger was Somewhere in the 800s. But then, it was gestalt

EDIT: I should mention without a crit. And that was only one of the attacks. Not the full attack.

[Tyndmyr]

Let the Formian worker use the spell like abilities 1/day without needing any helpers, and give it an LA +1. A little on the strong side, though.

Honestly, given the massive diplomatic difficulties faced in all sorts of circumstances, I wouldn't have much of a problem with that.

[Siosilvar]

Whats even better is a Tauric Insectile Thri-Kreen

Department of Redundancy Department FTW!