How much Refluffing is too much Refluffing?

[BRC]

So, I'm working on an Adventure. In it the PC's will run afoul of the local Mob, which means they are going up against Thugs.
I'm statting these Thugs as Orc barbarians wielding Greatclubs.
However, some questions came to mind.

For example, to go with the classic Mafia thug Image, I decided to give them Greatclubs. However, since at this stage in the game, pretty much every damage type directed at the PC's has no purpose beyond fluff, could I not stat them as having Greataxes and say they're just wielding big sticks or pipes or whatever?

Or, lets say I like the image of these thugs just beating the PC's up with their bare hands. Now, for obvious statistical reasons, I'm not going to stat them as fighting Unarmed, but could I stat them as using Greatclubs and say they are using their bare hands. It should be noted my PC's have yet to try to Disarm anything, and most of them arn't familiar enough with the rules to call me on much. But is it too much to say "The orc punches you really hard" then roll as if he just attacked with a Greatclub.

[AstralFire]

"This orc has custom feat: Punch like a Mother."

"He has a special club that deals different damage."

This doesn't even come close to crossing the line, dude. Go for it.

[Tiki Snakes]

So, I'm working on an Adventure. In it the PC's will run afoul of the local Mob, which means they are going up against Thugs.
I'm statting these Thugs as Orc barbarians wielding Greatclubs.
However, some questions came to mind.

For example, to go with the classic Mafia thug Image, I decided to give them Greatclubs. However, since at this stage in the game, pretty much every damage type directed at the PC's has no purpose beyond fluff, could I not stat them as having Greataxes and say they're just wielding big sticks or pipes or whatever?

Or, lets say I like the image of these thugs just beating the PC's up with their bare hands. Now, for obvious statistical reasons, I'm not going to stat them as fighting Unarmed, but could I stat them as using Greatclubs and say they are using their bare hands. It should be noted my PC's have yet to try to Disarm anything, and most of them arn't familiar enough with the rules to call me on much. But is it too much to say "The orc punches you really hard" then roll as if he just attacked with a Greatclub.

Nope. Go for it.

[Eldan]

Generally, do whatever you want as long as mechanics aren't changed in a way that is unbalanced. As a DM, you can even slightly cross that line from time to time.
So, orks with improved natural attack (i.e. "punch like a mother") are totally okay.

[GrassyGnoll]

Masterwork baseball bats with nails in them?
Masterwork ice picks?

I like ice picks. It makes a good front business.

[lsfreak]

There is no such thing as too much refluffing.

Okay, I suppose you *might* be able to refluff something to the level of absurdity, but off the top of my head the only way you could actually do that is to directly contradict the crunch.

[Foryn Gilnith]

They shouldn't get weapon finesse or anything like that with their Greataxe Knuckles, but go for it. It's not like the PCs would need to loot the nonmagical axes anyway.

[DragoonWraith]

There is no such thing as too much refluffing.

Okay, I suppose you *might* be able to refluff something to the level of absurdity, but off the top of my head the only way you could actually do that is to directly contradict the crunch.

I definitely agree with lsfreak. Fluff is always and completely mutable.

[ericgrau]

Thugs do not use clubs and fists in a time of open war. That is for beating the prisoners and the guy who won't pay up. What we have here is something "between" lethal and non-lethal damage: it takes a long time to heal but no limbs are severed. House rule it accordingly. IMO allow the attacker, at his option, to remove all chance of crits or fort saves. Then call it a day. But please don't send the thugs onto the streets with clubs and bare fists. That's when you break out the tommy guns, err I mean greatswords.

[Harperfan7]

I wouldn't do that if I were you, but I'm a stickler for accruacy.
(Bwahahaha!)

[deuxhero]

"This orc has custom feat: Punch like a Mother."

"He has a special club that deals different damage."

This doesn't even come close to crossing the line, dude. Go for it.

The first is good, the second isn't. A feat can't be looted, a special club can.

[BRC]

Thugs do not use clubs and fists in a time of open war. That is for beating the prisoners and the guy who won't pay up. What we have here is something "between" lethal and non-lethal damage: it takes a long time to heal but no limbs are severed. House rule it accordingly. IMO allow the attacker, at his option, to remove all chance of crits or fort saves. Then call it a day. But please don't send the thugs onto the streets with clubs and bare fists. That's when you break out the tommy guns, err I mean greatswords.

It's not at this point Open War, the PC's arn't another mafia, just visitors who happen to be trying to recover something the Mob wants for itself.
The first thugs they meet will just be on extortion duty, collecting "Docking Fees" from any ships who land at the port.

Later on, as they start facing less Street Muscle and more skilled enforcers and assassins, it won't be Clubs and Fists anymore.
But yeah, most of the Thugs they meet will be on "Look Scary Without attracting too much attention" duty.

[AslanCross]

I totally agree that fluff is completely mutable. I avoid doing so, but if there are no viable options in the existing rules, I occasionally do this.

[Defiant]

Definitely, go for it.

You see, back when I played a melee character, I wanted the weapon Dwarven Waraxe due to its properties, but I wanted a sword. So my DM let me have wield a bastard sword that actually cost as much and crit like a Dwarven Waraxe.

[AstralFire]

The first is good, the second isn't. A feat can't be looted, a special club can.

The variant isn't particularly powerful, so what's wrong with letting a player loot it?

[Raum]

So, I'm working on an Adventure. In it the PC's will run afoul of the local Mob, which means they are going up against Thugs.
I'm statting these Thugs as Orc barbarians wielding Greatclubs.
However, some questions came to mind.

You seem to be changing more than just 'fluf'...and when it comes to rules, don't change any you won't also let the PCs take advantage of. So unless you're willing to let the PCs pick up a pipe / feat / whatever and use it for great axe damage, don't do it yourself.

But that's not fluff...those are mechanics.

[BRC]

You seem to be changing more than just 'fluf'...and when it comes to rules, don't change any you won't also let the PCs take advantage of. So unless you're willing to let the PCs pick up a pipe / feat / whatever and use it for great axe damage, don't do it yourself.

But that's not fluff...those are mechanics.

No, it's fluff, because for all statistical intents and purposes, they are using a Greatclub.

If a PC wants to do the same thing, I'd still charge them for the Greatclub, make them follow the same rules as if they were using a Greatclub, ect.

[Yzzyx]

No amount of refluffing is too much refluffing.

What is being suggested involves a slight change in mechanics, however. For example, the punching orcs will probably be immune to disarm attempts, and the players will get fewer nonmagical greatclubs. These things are generally minor enough not to be a problem, however.

[Riffington]

There are three types of refluffing. The first is when you, the DM, have a vision of your world that differs from the printed material. This is positive and encouraged. You are the one creating the world, not some rulebook. Changing the book's material to match your vision is absolutely appropriate and good.

The second is when the player wants to do the same thing. She has a vision of being from a nation of enslaved halflings (or whatever), and wants to work with you to create that part of the shared world. This is even better than type 1 if done right: there's nothing better than a world that the players and DM cooperate to create. If done poorly it's still basically ok, just can feel "tacked on".

The third is when the player has a mechanic he wants to use, but doesn't like the RP "baggage" that comes with it. Here, it may or may not be ok. You basically need to ask yourself to what extent that's "just a mechanic" and to what extent that's something that should stay tied to a particular tradition/class/history. Maybe you want a certain power to be unique to one group of people, and maybe you don't; figure out what it means to your particular campaign.

All the above also applies to changing mechanics to match your updated vision of the world. The crunch was written for one specific world vision, just like the "fluff" was. Some changes to the vision need not change that crunch, other changes virtually require it. Your crunch should make your world believable.

[Count Dravda]

Sounds completely reasonable. You've thought it out, and the most significant factor changed is the inability to disarm, which, as you noted, your players don't try. The net effect sounds like a group of thugs that EXACTLY match your vision, both in flavor and mechanics.

DO IT.

-Count Dravda

[Raum]

No, it's fluff, because for all statistical intents and purposes, they are using a Greatclub.

If a PC wants to do the same thing, I'd still charge them for the Greatclub, make them follow the same rules as if they were using a Greatclub, ect.

Does it or does it not affect the rule mechanic of how much damage a particular object does? If it does, it's not "fluff".

Do note, I'm not against changing mechanics as well as fluff...as long as it's changed for everyone. The PCs should simply be able to pick up said pipe and do similar damage.

[aje8]

No such thing as too much refluffing, as other have said.

Yeah..... this one isn't even debateable. You're abosutley in the clear. PC buying/looting a great club that looks different is fine.

[taltamir]

I would prefer it if it was a custom creature that had tons of STR.

When you break the rules suspension of disbeleif breaks. If the orcs are just orcs and doing uncharistically high damage with their fists, something is wrong.

But on the other hand, if the "creatures" look "kinda like orcs, but not quite, they have glowing eyes, horns, and biceps twice as thick as your leg" and punch you for a ton of damage, "WOW THIS IS COOL!"
For extra cool, don't just hand out the knowledge of WHAT those are so they are forever a mystery...

That is, for it to be proper refluff you should refluff the cause, not just the damage.

Also, keep in mind that if you give an enemy a cool weapon, the PC's are gonna loot it off of his corpse, and will want it to work the same for themselves... (which is where very high strength comes to play; but you can just eschew it and make it have a custom feat or some other dice based damage... since STR is static damage, doing the same amount each hit)

[RoninFrosty]

Does it or does it not affect the rule mechanic of how much damage a particular object does? If it does, it's not "fluff".

You're looking at it the wrong way. You're not taking the fluff and adding different mechanics...you're taking the mechanics and adding different fluff. Like say I want to wield a tree branch. I could write down the stats for a greatclub and subtract the amount of gold that a greatclub would cost, but ask the DM if, fluffwise, I could be wielding a treebranch.

On that note, I'm 100% cool with doing things like that. I think to a small degree with the whole "unable to disarm" thing you're treading on thin ice, but if you're upfront with your players that you might be making small tweaks, shouldn't be an issue, methinks.

[taltamir]

If you want to wield a giant tree branch and make it a club, go for it.
If you want to say that same giant tree branch does 5d6 damage, then:
1. everyone will want to weild a tree branch.
2. you have recrunched a giant club, not refluffed it.

[AstralFire]

I would prefer it if it was a custom creature that had tons of STR.

When you break the rules suspension of disbeleif breaks. If the orcs are just orcs and doing uncharistically high damage with their fists, something is wrong.

I PUNCH LIKE A MOTHER... [Fighter, General]
Shut your mouth.
I'm only talking about: Shaft.
Prerequisites: Improved Natural Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: Your unarmed attack deals damage as a greataxe of a size you can comfortably wield, except that this damage is bludgeoning.
Special: We can dig it.

[Kylarra]

Just assume they have greater mighty wallop cast on them before they leave for mafia-guard duty.

[taltamir]

I PUNCH LIKE A MOTHER... [Fighter, General]
Shut your mouth.
I'm only talking about: Shaft.
Prerequisites: Improved Natural Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: Your unarmed attack deals damage as a greataxe of a size you can comfortably wield, except that this damage is bludgeoning.
Special: We can dig it.

thats works... they take 3 feats to get this damage... not arbitrarily deciding they do it.
It is no different than my suggestion of "tons of strength" approach... both require it to be a fairly high level orc.
This costs them 3 feats. so they wouldn't be uncharacteristically powerful and you are out of fiatville of "most orcs are tough, these orcs are normal orcs, but are SUPER tough and do tons of damage with only 10HP".

Still would be nice to hear that they have huge biceps or otherwise tie it into the description. Although, it could just be magic.

Actually for all you know, they have been buffed up the wazoo and that is why they are doing so much damage (look for a wizard). But then, what happens when the players cast dispell on them because of such an assumption?

The idea basically is to distinguish what is fluff and what is crunch.

[Dracomorph]

I like the idea, but I reccomend you give the unarmed dude some unique brass knuckles, and make them an exotic weapon he's proficient with. That way, you allow the PCs to disarm him if they think of it, give them an item they can sell if necessary, and allow things to function easily rules-wise.

Maybe some bagh-nakh.

[AstralFire]

thats works... not that it really makes a difference compared with the "tons of strength" approach... both require it to be a fairly high level orc.
This costs them 3 feats. so they wouldn't be uncharacteristically powerful.

Still would be nice to hear that they have huge biceps or otherwise tie it into the description. Although, it could just be magic.

Actually for all you know, they have been buffed up the wazoo and that is why they are doing so much damage (look for a wizard). But then, what happens when the players cast dispell on them because of such an assumption?

Or, they just randomly got granted feats. Because the DM can do that as much as they can randomly grant str increases.

And hey, when you randomly grant feats, you don't have to give it a name. You just know you want them to be able to do X. Which is sort of how all the monsters are built.

And then, hey, why even bother making it a feat? Just say, "these orcs are different." Because that's all the DM has to do. And she or he is perfectly within their rights to do that.