[3.5] Making the Most Powerful 25th Level Gestalt Character...

[Zovc]

So, I just found a Gestalt arena game at an absurd power level.

Double Prestige Class progression is allowed and "theurge" progression is also allowed.

Level Adjustments and Racial Hit Dice count as one side of gestalt. (Example, I could be an Aasimar/Paladin at level 1.)

Lots of leeway, I feel like it'll be easier for me to tell you if something is allowed rather than for me to list everything that is allowed.

I'll list whether or not something is allowed here and in a posted response to whoever asked it in the thread. This is an attempt to keep new posters up to speed but keep others from having to watch the first post for changes.

List inside the box:

Spoiler

Show

No infinite loops.
No prestige versions of base classes (Prestige Bard, Paladin, or Ranger) From UA.

Random Creation info:
36 point buy, each stat must be bought up to 10. Templates HDs and level adjustments work just like racial HDs and level adjustment (are one side of gestalt), and are applied as if the character was concieved ("started play") with them. (In other words, I couldn't take a template that required me to be good, then later become evil and get another one that requires me to be evil.) All racial and template abilities are gained at the last level of their hit dice/LA, if there is a WIZARDS progression for that race or template, that may be used instead. One extra bonus feat at levels 1 and 21. High intelligence scores provide retroactive skill points during creation. 2.1 million GP. 12,500 XP for researching epic level spells, crafting magic items, XP costs for spells, etc. Leftover XP turns into 5gp each.

DM is willing to help give prestige classes epic progressions I assume he would do the same for base classes.

Any Wizards sourcebook should be allowed.

So, how broken can I be?

Is a Theurge build actually sounding good this way?

[Defiant]

Omnicaster!!!

[Mooch]

well to focus on SAD i would do a wizard/psion|| factorum or you could go druid||ninja

if possible I would try to grab an epic template or two (demilich(SRD) gives you some crazy bonus as a caster just beware turning, you can grab deathknight to offset that) also vecna-blooded(MM5) is nice

edit: if you go the wizard/psion route check out the mind mage and offset the lost caster/manifester levels on the other side and use cerebremancer for the rest, also you could use warblade for some extra hp among other things

or as a charisma caster you could pull something along the lines of ghost/hexblade||sorc/incantrix with venerable dragonwrought kobold loredrake

or I beleive an archivist/dwemorkeeper||wizard/incantrix gets both metamagic reductions on all spells and to finish it out you could run a theuge/facotorum or warblade

[Wings of Peace]

Options 1: Bitey

Race: Blink Dog

Side 1: Something else you like X/Sword Sage 1/Tel-Flammar Shadowlord 4

Feat Investment: 6 (Tel-Flammar Shadowlord reqs, Adaptive Style, and Learning White Raven Tactics.)

Side 2: Blink Dog 4 (HD)/Blink Dog LA 2/ Whatever you want X

What you do: Swift Action:
1.) Swift Action: White Raven Tactics (Your turn is now next)
2.) Full Round Action: Recover White Raven Tactics
3.) Free Action: Teleport somewhere near the enemy. You now get a full attack.
4.) Take your next turn and repeat this process in an infinite loop.

Option 2: The Regenerator

Race: Ghost (From Ghostwalk) Half Green Dragon War-Troll

Side 1: Beguiler X (AFB and don't know how much RS needs)-> Rainbow Servant 10 -> Prestige Paladin of the Arcane Order 4 (Take Alternate Source Spell so that you can call yourself a divine caster)

Side 2: Racial/Template Everything. You have regen against all forms of damage, find a way to gain immunity to non-combat damage now. I will check this out when I get back to my books.

What you do: Spontaneously cast all spells that exist

Notes: You are immune to damage. Find a way to get immunity to ability drain (I will look into this later), as well as immunity to magic or at least pump your saving throws and your are golden. This build is still rough at best. I will work out boosting your dcs via Taint later. Spelldancer levels will be good for Persistent spells but honestly Spelldancer qualification is heavy stuff.

[Zovc]

Sorry, no infinite loops, and the prestige versions of base classes are also banned.

[Fluffles]

Druid 25//Cleric 25

Or Wizard 25//Psion 25

or Druid 25// Swordsage 15/Mot9 10

or Psionic Warrior 8/Warblade 15//Psion 25

[OMG PONIES]

Since I'm pretty sure I know the arena you're referring to, please scrap the 2 builds above* (which I'm pretty sure will get banned right away).

Honestly, your best bet is going to be ...

1. An extreme focus on offense with ways to counter common defenses (invisibility, miss change, flight) along with tons of attacks and extra damage sources or...
2. An extreme focus on defense with ways to counter situations as they arise (Divine Defiance, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Craft Contingent Spell, etc.) or...
3. A focus on breaking the action economy (though I think Synchronicity is banned in this arena) by using monkey business (who DOESN'T love temporal acceleration, Ruby Knight Vindicator, and/or shapechanging into a chronotryn?).

However, you'll have to do it without being entirely cheesy (no Celerity + Mark of the Dauntless, for instance) since they're pretty vigilant about stopping anything that makes the game less fun for others.

*EDIT: That was in reference to the blink dog (especially since I think the DMs ruled that you can't use WRT on yourself) or the Regenerator (which doesn't grant all spells, but a whole fat load of them, and is still plenty killable).

[Sinfire Titan]

Pally of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 2/Crusader 2/Ur-Priest 2/Divine Oracle 1/Warpriest 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Ordained Champion 4//Duskblade 19/Abjurant Champion 5


Full Divine casting on one side, Full BAB and Arcane Channeling on the other, with a touch of Martial Adept for good measure.

[Mongoose87]

Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Windicator//Wizard

Cast "Time Stop"

Use each round's swift action and an extra one from the Windicator to cast Wraistrike+True Strike. Use full power attack with a two-handed weapon+a White Raven maneuver to charge in the first round, then make full attack with wraithstrike and true strike each round after. Finally, use White Raven Tactics to do it once more.

[Dixieboy]

Wizard/Factotum.

...
what?

[Mooch]

Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Windicator//Wizard

Cast "Time Stop"

Use each round's swift action and an extra one from the Windicator to cast Wraistrike+True Strike. Use full power attack with a two-handed weapon+a White Raven maneuver to charge in the first round, then make full attack with wraithstrike and true strike each round after. Finally, use White Raven Tactics to do it once more.

you cannot attack creatures while in time stop

[RandomNPC]

wiz10/cleric10 followed by Mystic Thurge10/Monk10

20 levels of both caster levels, an unarmored fighting class with good saves, and five more levels, i'd go monk5/rogue5 for skills and more monkishness.

but thats just with the core books.

[Zovc]

Any good LA/HD races? What are some good templates? Are they worth it?

Is Spellstitched worth it as an undead? (1k gp and 500xp per point of wisdom) What about Swarm-Shifter (It doesn't seem to have any ECL costs according to CrystalKeep)?

I like the sound of a Factotum, using Cunning Surge a lot, and that sounds nice with a Wizard of Psion. Are epic psionics as powerful as epic spells? Any ways to make that Gestalt better?

[Lycanthromancer]

Spell resistance is a huge problem in epic, so make sure you have at least 11 levels of factotum.

Consider an ascended elf LA+4/factotum 11/chameleon 10 // psion 3/wizard 1/cerebremancer 10 (with early-entry shenanigans)/ultimate magus 6 (if psionics is allowed as the 'spontaneous' side)/cerebremancer 5: Int to everything, 25 levels of sorcerer casting, near-full manifesting, near-full wizard casting, and lots and lots and lots of potential action economy abuse.

[Blackfang108]

Pally of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 2/Crusader 2/Ur-Priest 2/Divine Oracle 1/Warpriest 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Ordained Champion 4//Duskblade 19/Abjurant Champion 5


Full Divine casting on one side, Full BAB and Arcane Channeling on the other, with a touch of Martial Adept for good measure.

You're missing a level on the right. Duskblade 20/AbJ5

[Myrmex]

Since it's arena, I'd be tempted to put illithid + 10 levels of illithid savant on one side of the build.

Then I'd put wizard 3/incanta10/cerebremancer10/something else 2 on the other side.

Now you get to eat brains and gain powers of whatever you kill, manifesting as a 21 telepath, and casting as a wizard 25.

[OMG PONIES]

Is Spellstitched worth it as an undead? (1k gp and 500xp per point of wisdom) What about Swarm-Shifter (It doesn't seem to have any ECL costs according to CrystalKeep)?

I'm pretty sure Spellstitched has been banned, and I think Swarm-Shifter has LA: - (though I'm AFB), which usually means it's unplayable for PCs as far as I know.

[Mooch]

the mind mage PRC helps with the SR issue with the twinwells ability, also if going a charisma caster to fight the SR grab a level of marshel and add your charisma score to beat SR

[Lycanthromancer]

Ethergaunt 20/archmage 5 // factotum 11/ur-priest 1 2/bard 1/sublime chord 1/mystic theurge 11 10.

25th level wizard casting, Int to EVERYTHING (and the ability to ignore SR at will, and extra standard actions as well), and full-9s on both divine and spontaneous arcane casting.

Take that feat that alters your casting stat to Int (twice!) to make MAD puppy SAD.

[AstralFire]

Psion//Wilder/Metamind

[Zovc]

Take that feat that alters your casting stat to Int (twice!) to make MAD puppy SAD.

That looks deliciously cheesy, where can I find those feats? What about Ethergaunt, where is that from?

[Lycanthromancer]

Psion//Wilder/Metamind

EEEEE! IT'S ASTRALFIRE!

Consider Psion // wilder 5/anarchic initiate 10/metamind 10, and a race that's immune to dazing.

That looks deliciously cheesy, where can I find those feats? What about Ethergaunt, where is that from?

Ethergaunt's from Fiend Folio, and I think the feat that alters your casting stat is from PHB2. I think.

[edit] I looked, and couldn't find it. Maybe in one of the Completes? Maybe? Anyone?

[Lycanthromancer]

Double-post.

[avr]

There's a prestige class in Races of Eberron (Atavist) whose capstone lets you expend your psionic focus to get a standard action. It's normally a monk prestige class, so this isn't such a big deal as it'd be in a gestalt game.

There are a few ways to store or rapidly regain your psionic focus. Psicrystals, narrow mind, Instant Clarity from the ToB - by level 25 you should be able to get them all.

Something like Kalashtar (the PrC is race specific) Psion 15 / Cerebremancer 10 // Monk 5 / Wizard 5 / Atavist 10 / Warblade 5 works. If favoured class isn't an issue you might trade in some monk levels for more wizard, warblade or a PrC advancing one of those.

[Myrmex]

[edit] I looked, and couldn't find it. Maybe in one of the Completes? Maybe? Anyone?

The best version is in Bastards & Bloodlines.

As long as we're using totally broken 3rd party stuff, take that feat that lets you count as a beholder and go beholder mage. Of the metamagic feat from Kingdoms of Kalamor that makes it so targets of your spells auto-fail their saves.

[Lycanthromancer]

Actually, you might want to trade one level of mystic theurge for ur-priest, so you can get the 2nd level divine spells as a prereq for MT.

Oops.

But still......

EEEEE! IT'S ASTRALFIRE!

(Also, SAD PUPPY.)

[Douglas]

So, I just found a Gestalt arena game at an absurd power level.

I can almost guarantee you it's not as absurd as this one (my character there is Taurnil).

Anyway, what limits are there on epic spell design, particularly mitigation and available time for casting?

[Lycanthromancer]

I can almost guarantee you it's not as absurd as this one (my character there is Taurnil).

Anyway, what limits are there on epic spell design, particularly mitigation and available time for casting?

If it were me, I'd ignore epic spells altogether and start whooping up on legendary abominations with 5th-9th level spells, just to show everyone how borked 3.5 spellcasting really is.

Don't forget the metamagic reducers! In fact, that's where I'd head next. Things like incantatrix and such.

[tonberrian]

Swiftblade.

Swiftblade is one of the few ways to get a decent miss chance on yourself that's basically impenetrable. Neither True Seeing nor Blindsight nor any other detection method penetrates it, simply because you're moving very fast. You even get 50% immunity to targetted spells, and it can't be dispelled. It even lets you have a pseudo-timestop without interference (Spell Stowaway (Timestop) is going to be common and effective, consider it). Extra actions don't hurt, either.

[Wings of Peace]

Saw Illithid Savant come up earlier which had not occurred to me for some reason. If you took Illlithid Savant would you be allowed to choose what abilities you had or would you have to gain them during the fight?

Monster classes said, Beholder Mage combod with Planar Shepard would also be quite godly. Beholder Mage alone would be quite godly. A dip of Mindbender so that you can take Mindsight will also be good for your sensory ability.