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2009-11-03, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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[3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
As the title suggests, what are the "best" 13 maneuvers (and 4 stances) for a lvl 20 warblade? Substituting lower lever maneuvers for higher level ones as the char levels up is of course a given. I am thinking a Diamond Mind/Iron Heart warblade here, who will probably use a mace and shield.
And another semi-related question: Is there any way a character can make AoO's while flat footed? And if there is, and the character DOES make an AoO (or does a defensive maneuver like wall of blades) then does this count as the character having acted and is thus no longer flat footed?Last edited by Choco; 2009-11-03 at 04:51 PM.
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2009-11-03, 04:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Combat reflexes does, though I don't think it changes you're flat-footedness.
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2009-11-03, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Best maneuvers really depends on your weapon/play style. A TWF Warblade will have different manevuers than a 2hander, or someone focused on Diamond Mind/Iron Heart will be different from someone focused on Tiger Claw or White Raven or whatever.
Go reread Combat Reflexes. It allows you to make AoOs while flatfooted. Its like, the 2nd line of the feat. No, it wouldn't stop you from being flatfooted. Only thing that can do that is Uncanny Dodge, which, consequently, Warblades get relatively early in their career!
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2009-11-03, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
D'oh! I completely forgot about that part of Combat Reflexes... damn, I spent forever looking cause I knew I saw it somewhere....
Anyway, wouldnt making an AoO by default no longer make you flat-footed? I dont have access to the books right now, but isnt the definition of flat-footed basically "hasnt acted in combat yet"? Wouldn't making an attack kinda nullify that?
Also, I was thinking Diamond Mind/Iron Heart warblade.Been there, fought that, died horribly.
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2009-11-03, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-11-03, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Let's see. For a weapon-and-board, Iron Heart/Diamond Mind-focused Warblade 20, I'd probably end up with a maneuver selection like:
Stances: Punishing Stance, Hunter's Sense, Pearl of Black Doubt, Stance of Alacrity
Diamond Mind: Moment of Perfect Mind, Greater Insightful Strike, Rapid Counter, Avalanche of Blades, Moment of Alacrity, Diamond Nightmare Blade, Time Stands Still
Iron Heart: Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, Adamantine Hurricane, Iron Heart Endurance, Strike of Perfect Clarity
Tiger Claw: Pouncing Charge, Raging Mongoose
You can see I couldn't resist mixing in some Tiger Claw. It's just too good with two-weapon fighting (and a shield is a weapon; for goodness' sake, take Improved Shield Bash and Agile Shield Fighter! And STORMGUARD WARRIOR!)
It might also be worth spending 3000 gp on an Amulet to get the Devoted Spirit "Shield Block" counter, even though Maneuvers Readied are already a scarce resource.
It's a pity to miss out on White Raven Tactics, so you could consider squeezing it in.
If you don't like Strike of Perfect Clarity (some people say it sucks), you could take Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip instead.You can call me Draz.
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2009-11-03, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Do you actually have to ready maneuvers granted by items? I thought that they were automatically granted.
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2009-11-03, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
I'd try to squeeze Leaping Dragon Stance in as well. I find jumping really high way more flavorful then having a magic item to fly (if you are naturally winged, that, of course, is irrelevant).
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2009-11-03, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Avalanche of Blades is just stupid good, especially when combined with some basic tricks like the crusader stance that lets you take 11 on attack rolls (acquired through martial stance or an item) and effects that grant you dramatic increases in your accuracy, like stormguard warrior, wraithstrike (from a wand), or even just a friendly summoned creature providing you a flanking bonus and an aid another bonus.
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2009-11-03, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
If you absolutely do not want to be flatfooted, and can't raise your initiative high enough, you could always custom make an unlimited use item of Foresight?
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2009-11-04, 01:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
I really like diamond defense also for those fort and reflex saves that you really don't want to miss.
I'm not a huge fan of greater insightful strike if you have a high strength. I've had some success using Finishing Move as a follow up to a Nightmare Blade or a strike of perfect clarity, or a Time Stands Still. It can actually be pretty sick!
I've also found Lightning Throw to be a solid manuver which I like better than rapid counter or the insightful strikes.
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2009-11-04, 02:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Isn't there a Diamond Mind stance that gives you an extra swift action? With stuff like Rapid Counter, Manticore Parry, Iron Heart Surge, Iron Heart Focus, and the Concentration Save line, you're going to want all the swift actions you can get.
Also, I personally have a weak spot for the Nightmare Blade line.Half-Orc Scout by Magioth
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2009-11-04, 03:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
I would still use atleast Island of Blades (Shadow Hand stance) best stance there is in my opinion ;)
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2009-11-04, 03:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Warblade, not Swordsage. To get Island of Blades, a Warblade would need to use Martial Study to get a Shadow Hand manuever to qualify for the Martial Stance feat. Given the benefit, it isn't worth the effort. Shield Block from L3 Martial Study into Thicket of Blades at L6, on the other hand...
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2009-11-04, 03:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-11-04, 09:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Alright, thanks a lot guys, now I have a much narrowed down pool of maneuvers to consider.
Also, the flat-footed thing is to get around Iaijutsu Focus cheese. I didnt explain it earlier cause the setup is LONG and I was running short on time, but I got time now... We are playing in a very low magic campaign (only thing stopping me from getting a Foresight item, even a 1/day use one.. that was an awesome idea though) and have a houseruled Quick Sheath feat. Of course, this lead to someone having a Samurai2/Warblade4/Iaijutsu Master 10 with 18 charisma, max ranks and skill focus in Iaijutsu Focus, an insane initiative modifier, and whos very limited selection of magic items includes a belt of battle and a katana with the haste enchantment. The way a lot of disputes are settled in our region of the game world is through "gentlemen's duels", and in these duels the opponents start out right next to eachother...
So as you can see, everything is in the Iaijutsu Master's favor... She gets her free surprise round no matter what, and for a Iaijutsu Master that is an extra 2 attacks, then that is followed by 10 attacks should she win initiative (2 standard actions at 5 attacks each from the haste and belt of battle), all of which have Iaijutsu Focus due to the opponent being flat footed and roughly 7 of them hit reliably. Iaijutsu Focus nets her an average of 8d6 + 32 (+4 to each dice from charisma modifier) of damage for each of the strikes that lands. Even if she loses init and only the first 2 from the surprise round land, that is still A LOT of damage. If for some reason the opponent survives the first round (hasnt happened so far) she has Sapphire Nightmare Blade to lean on the rest of the fight.
So I am trying to find a way to beat this character in a duel as described above (else I would just use an ubercharger...) using only a martial class and really just need a way to not be flat footed to pull it off. Since the Iaijutsu Focus skill specifically says "flat footed" and not "whenever they dont get their dex bonus to AC" like Sneak Attack does, I don't think Uncanny Dodge applies. So yeah, any help would be appreciated and all 3.5 books are allowed in this, I would be interested in seeing what some of y'all can come up with
p.s. I am trying to avoid using a clone or better Iaijutsu build for this, but if anyone does have a better one I would love to see it for "future reference"Last edited by Choco; 2009-11-04 at 09:37 AM.
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2009-11-04, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Get a Weapon of Legacy with the Cunning property (they also help you win the initiative; ~+20 from Moment of Prescience goes a long way). Ta-da! No flat-footedness. Also, I recall you are no longer flat-footed when you take an action so if you have Stance of Alacrity, which specifically can be used while flat-footed, and use a Counter (Immediate Action), you should no longer be flat-footed.
It doesn't hurt that Stance of Alacrity is just about the best Stance in the books (some arguments could be made for Immortal Fortitude and a variety of awesome lower level stances) so you don't lose anything by maintaining it constantly. And with Dual Stance, you can keep something else like Hearing the Air, Press the Advantage [20' worth of steps if you can make DC 40 Tumble to 10' step instead of 5'!], Wolf Fang Tactics, Tactics of the Wolf, Leading the Charge, Assassin's Stance, Blood in the Water or similar up in the process.
But yeah, a single Weapon of Legacy as your only magic item seems incredibly appropriate and can cover a crapton.Last edited by Eldariel; 2009-11-04 at 10:12 AM.
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2009-11-04, 10:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Thanks a lot! Stance of Alacrity is PERFECT for what I need. AoO's apparently dont count as "actions" for getting rid of flat-footedness, but using Stance of Alacrity to use Wall of Blades as an immediate action will not only help me avoid getting any Iaijutsu damage (good luck beating my attack roll AC) from the first attack, but since an immediate action is classified as an action, I will not need to worry about any further Iaijutsu damage! Sapphire Nightmare Blade is about my only concern, but I can live with that. I think you just solved my entire problem here!
I will also look into a legacy weapon, those might actually be worth it in low magic campaigns.Been there, fought that, died horribly.
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2009-11-04, 10:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Last edited by Iku Rex; 2009-11-04 at 11:03 AM.
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2009-11-04, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
If you can manage the Tiger Claw prereqs (with stuff like Hunter's Sense or Sudden Leap that doesn't require TWF) Swooping Dragon Strike is an excellent 7th level maneuver. Extra damage and save or stun, with the DC being your Jump check. At level 13, I've had Jump as high as +30, so they get to make a DC 31-50 Fort save. :)
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2009-11-04, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
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2009-11-04, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Ah drat, if all else fails maybe I can just convince the DM to rule common sense over RAW. I personally believe that making an AoO (the equivalent of a standard action IMO) or doing an immediat action, whether or not you use up a slot or not, still counts as you having acted, and you are obviously reacting to combat just fine as opposed to standing there confused going "WTF is going on?"
Or just rely on Cunning Legacy Weapon as Eldariel stated to make sure I win initiative, though that still leaves the 2 strikes from the surprise round to deal with.Last edited by Choco; 2009-11-04 at 11:17 AM.
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2009-11-04, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Cunning-property on Legacy Weapon means you're basically never flat-footed. It's like Foresight. Moment of Prescience helps with the Initiative. You can get both from a Legacy Weapon. Note though that Cunning is a Lesser Legacy while Moment of Prescience is a Greater Legacy so Cunning is available far earlier. You can eventually have both on the same weapon though.
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2009-11-04, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Hey, I can get away with this just using Wall of Blades. I already get Uncanny Dodge as a class feature, and Wall of Blades only limit is it cannot be used whenever I am denied my dex bonus to AC. Since being flat-footed no longer denies me a dex bonus to AC, I can use an immediate action to do Wall of Blades and get rid of my flat-footedness that way, using just that one maneuver!
Now that I was able to read it, Cunning would be the perfect solution though, it flat out says "you are never considered flat-footed". Would this even counter Sapphire Nightmare Blade? Also, would I be able to get a legacy weapon that would be universally useful to me (given the costs) instead of just in this one fight?Last edited by Choco; 2009-11-04 at 11:35 AM.
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2009-11-04, 11:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Whenever optimizing a high-level warrior-type, I get a Legacy weapon simply because of the laundry list of immunities and difficult-to-replicate abilities you can get for relatively low cost. Stuff like:
Mind Blank
Heal
Skill Enhancements
Intelligence (which comes with Blindsight and Darkvision; very useful as a detector for normally-not-so-high-Spot melee types)
Dispels
Mirror Images
etc.
just have tons of uses. They've also got the Creature Compass ability on level 1 and so on. The trick is making it something other than your primary weapon. A gauntlet works fine. A weapon of legacy is great as a support item but miserable as your primary weapon; enhancing it just costs too many Legacy ability slots.
And for what it's worth, Cunning is OMGWTFBBQ important for any character with immediate actions.Last edited by Eldariel; 2009-11-04 at 11:48 AM.
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2009-11-04, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Ah, guess that makes sense. I can live with things like minor attack/save/HP penalties anyway, since those are simple enough to get around.
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2009-11-05, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Ah, for a duel. Hmmm, my favorite tact to use for a Warblade in a duel, then, is:
- Setup: Somehow start your turn adjacent to your enemy, and with a lower initiative count than him. Easiest way is probably losing initiative in the first place () and letting him charge and attack you, since you know he's going to be melee.
- Full-round action: Avalanche of Blades, dealing no damage using Combat Rhythm. Since these are touch attacks, you should make a LOT of them before you miss one.
- Swift action: Moment of Alacrity. Now you get another turn before he gets a turn.
- New turn, swift action: Raging Mongoose
- Full-round action: Time Stands Still. Attack him a bajillion times, with a bajillion bonus damage on each attack thanks to Combat Rhythm.
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2009-11-05, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Ah, for a duel. Hmmm, my favorite tact to use for a Warblade in a duel, then, is:
Setup: Somehow start your turn adjacent to your enemy, and with a lower initiative count than him. Easiest way is probably losing initiative in the first place () and letting him charge and attack you, since you know he's going to be melee.
Full-round action: Avalanche of Blades, dealing no damage using Combat Rhythm. Since these are touch attacks, you should make a LOT of them before you miss one.
Swift action: Moment of Alacrity. Now you get another turn before he gets a turn.
New turn, swift action: Raging Mongoose
Full-round action: Time Stands Still. Attack him a bajillion times, with a bajillion bonus damage on each attack thanks to Combat Rhythm.
As for the Iaijutsu master, according to my copy of Oriental adventures, both of you get a surprise action, regardles of who wins initiative, and while its hard to avoid your opponent getting his 2 strikes in, then it should be survivable, after that you should get a standard action, where i would recomend the disarming strike, to prevent your opponent from slicing you appart with a full attack.
Also, it was not quite clear from your post, but do remember you can only use Iaijutsu on the attack where you draw your sword, and you cant sheathe it again as a free action with quickdraw (this is a mistake i have seen other people make in the past).thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2009-11-05, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Heh, if it were a Iaijutsu duel
However, this is really just a normal duel where the opponents start out standing within striking distance of eachother (as opposed to opposite ends of an arena like a boxing/gladiator match), so the only one that gets a surprise round is the Iaijutsu Master cause of her class ability.
As for the sheathing:
Originally Posted by Choco
edit: Also, while we are already here... I am considering changing this character to just use a big 2-handed mace (refluffed greatsword), so was wondering what kinda feats I should take to be the best overall warrior possible. This char will be human, so an extra feat at 1st level.Last edited by Choco; 2009-11-05 at 01:18 PM.
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2009-11-05, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Best maneuvers for a lvl 20 warblade
Yes, you do. All that the item does is give you knowledge of the maneuver. If you are not a martial adept, you are then able to use that maneuver once per encounter. If you are a martial adept, it is like any other maneuver that you know: it must still be readied; it becomes expended when used; and it may be refreshed by whatever mechanic your class uses to refresh (and if you have more than one martial adept class, you get to choose which one the item maneuver belongs to).