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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    This is based on 3.5 fluff, for the record.

    As the title says, evil wizards live forever as liches, but there isn't a good way for wizards to live forever? Why can't I cheat death and still be a good guy? What if I want to go beyond "my" time using ultra-cool, ultra-powerful magic to protect the weak and help give to the poor?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Baelnorns. Liches for good people.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    They become Elminster.

    Cuz liches are b!*#$%.

    -X

    P.S. Or they cast wish for life extension. Good people are okay with spending XP to keep living. Or some wonky Epic Magic. Evil wizards always take the quick and dirty way out.
    Last edited by ErrantX; 2009-11-03 at 05:41 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Good wizards become liches and mindrape themselves back to Good. Oh, wait, I meant neutral wizards. w/e

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Technically, being good and becoming a lich doesn't make you evil. They just tend not to do it. There's a good lich template for those blokes.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    Baelnorns. Liches for good elves.
    I believe you made a spelling mistake, i fix'd it for you.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    Technically, being good and becoming a lich doesn't make you evil. They just tend not to do it. There's a good lich template for those blokes.
    One in Monsters of Faerun, for non-elves- archlich- has unique powers (including the ability to animate dead as a spell-like ability)

    And one-in Libris Mortis- the Good Lich- which doesn't appear to have anything specially different.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2009-11-03 at 05:46 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    Technically, being good and becoming a lich doesn't make you evil. They just tend not to do it. There's a good lich template for those blokes.
    ...you're referring to? The SRD says, under alignment, "any evil." Also, "The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character. A lich retains all class abilities it had in life."

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dixieboy View Post
    I believe you made a spelling mistake, i fix'd it for you.
    That's what reincarnate is for.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post

    And one-in Libris Mortis- the Good Lich- which doesn't appear to have anything specially different.
    I'd guess the entry requirements weren't as harsh.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zovc View Post
    ...you're referring to? The SRD says, under alignment, "any evil." Also, "The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character. A lich retains all class abilities it had in life."
    One evil act doesn't dictate alignment, and "always alignment X" doesn't actually mean what it says. Normally, people who are good and want to be liches just use archlich, Baelnorn or the good lich variant.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Orc in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Good wizards live forever as fond memories and legends!

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salt_Crow View Post
    Good wizards live forever as fond memories and legends!
    Which is really helpful when two thousand years of liches realize there's no one to match their power
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  14. - Top - End - #14
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    I think the good liches are called... Archliches?
    trill in da playground

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Why would a good wizard want to live forever anyhow? They'd be putting off their eternal reward, so the only reason I can see them wanting to do this, is if there is no other choice in order to complete some quest for the greater good.

  16. - Top - End - #16
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    Lycanthromancer's Avatar

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Once you get access to lesser planar binding, get a nightmare. Dominate it. Have it cast astral projection on you. Come back to the Material Plane, cast gentle repose on your body (or cover it in quintessence), put it somewhere it won't be hurt, then go adventuring.

    Your body will remain young so long as you're not in it.

    Also, get a contingencied reincarnation, and kill yourself when you're getting near Old Age. Keep your mental bonuses, and keep your new Young Adult body.

    Alternately, research a spell that ensures you become a ghost.

    Or become a necropolitan.
    Last edited by Lycanthromancer; 2009-11-03 at 06:00 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    TheCountAlucard's Avatar

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Quote Originally Posted by lsfreak View Post
    Which is really helpful when two thousand years of liches realize there's no one to match their power
    Except other liches, of course. Evil always has difficulties in dealing with itself.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SoD's Avatar

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    One evil act doesn't dictate alignment, and "always alignment X" doesn't actually mean what it says. Normally, people who are good and want to be liches just use archlich, Baelnorn or the good lich variant.
    It doesn't mean what it says? Always is always. Mostly alignment X and ususually alignment X are different, but always is always (not counting magical ways to change alignments).

    Also, on making liches, the BOVD disagrees with you;
    Unliving corpses-corrupt mokeries of life and purity-are inherently evil. Creating them is one of the most heinous crimes against the world that a character can commit. Even if they are ordered to do something good, undead unvariably bring negative energy into the world, which makes it a darker and more evil place.
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  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    In 4E, it depends on your epic destiny. For example, a level 30 demigod who completes his destiny quest ascends into godhood. A level 30 archmage who does the same becomes one with magic itself.

    Nonmagical epic destinies, e.g. martial ones, often have the level 30 character be remembered forever, the stories of his epic deeds giving him an immortality of sorts.

    Avatars are an interesting case. When an avatar dies, his consciousness merges back with his greater divine self. For example, an avatar of Kelemvor would merge back with Kelemvor upon his death, and Kelemvor would then have all the accumulated experience, knowledge, and memories of his avatar.

  20. - Top - End - #20
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    Lycanthromancer's Avatar

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thalnawr View Post
    Why would a good wizard want to live forever anyhow? They'd be putting off their eternal reward, so the only reason I can see them wanting to do this, is if there is no other choice in order to complete some quest for the greater good.
    If, by 'eternal reward' you mean, 'loses his memories and experiences and lives for a few hundred years before ceasing to exist and merging with the multiverse,' then sure.

    Depends on the cosmology, though.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Dusk Eclipse's Avatar

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    IIRC the difference from a "normal" lich and a good one is that good ones have inmunity to turning... possibly the libris mortis has that template.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    One evil act doesn't dictate alignment,
    I disagree. I'd be comfortable saying that a single instance of throwing an innocent orphan child into a woodchipper would demonstrate not only that you are evil now, but that you were already evil for being the sort of person who would, even if the opportunity hadn't yet presented itself.

    Being good only has any relevance at all if it takes some sacrifice. Being evil only has any relevance if it can get you things being good can't. Letting "good" people get the benefits of being evil without the pain cheapens both.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Quote Originally Posted by SoD View Post
    Also, on making liches, the BOVD disagrees with you;
    BoVD and BoED are seen as questionable. Too lazy to look up a specific citation of a ridiculous moral statement there.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Quote Originally Posted by SoD View Post
    It doesn't mean what it says? Always is always. Mostly alignment X and ususually alignment X are different, but always is always (not counting magical ways to change alignments).

    Also, on making liches, the BOVD disagrees with you;
    Always doesn't mean always, hence why we get things like paladin Succubi and that redeemed mind flayer.

    As for that, BoVD is rather inane when it comes to alignment, because negative energy, like positive energy is neutral, hence why both their planes are neutral aligned.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Quote Originally Posted by SoD View Post
    It doesn't mean what it says? Always is always.
    Except when it isn't.
    Give them bread and circusses and the plebs wont rise against you. Give adventurers dungeons and trapped chests and they won't waste time looking to ransack your home and kill your wife.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grumman View Post
    I disagree. I'd be comfortable saying that a single instance of throwing an innocent orphan child into a woodchipper would demonstrate not only that you are evil now, but that you were already evil for being the sort of person who would, even if the opportunity hadn't yet presented itself.

    Being good only has any relevance at all if it takes some sacrifice. Being evil only has any relevance if it can get you things being good can't. Letting "good" people get the benefits of being evil without the pain cheapens both.
    Well, you can get immortality through lichdom which is something that by the rules both good and evil can get (good lich template, lich template) so I doubt strongly that this is a relevant case.

    Besides, circumstances around throwing a baby into a wood chipper may reveal some interesting reasons why the individual may not be evil, much like how a person becoming a lich may not indicate evil. If some culture decided that the appropriate way to dispose of corpses was to throw them in a woodchipper to let their corpse fertilize the field, would that be evil? No. Circumstances dictate everything.
    Last edited by Yukitsu; 2009-11-03 at 06:19 PM.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Sstoopidtallkid's Avatar

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Quote Originally Posted by SoD View Post
    It doesn't mean what it says? Always is always. Mostly alignment X and ususually alignment X are different, but always is always (not counting magical ways to change alignments).

    Also, on making liches, the BOVD disagrees with you;
    Quote Originally Posted by Book of Vile Descriptions
    Unliving corpses-corrupt mokeries of life and purity-are inherently evil. Creating them is one of the most heinous crimes against the world that a character can commit. Even if they are ordered to do something good, undead unvariably bring negative energy into the world, which makes it a darker and more evil place.
    Necropolitan. Or Dread Necromancer which is specifically open to neutral characters, and turns you into a lich for free without you needing to do anything at 20th level. Not to mention the fact that negative energy is neutral, not evil, spells like Enervation aren't Evil, and even the Flesh Colossus, a massive amalgamation of 300 animated corpses controlled by a ghost, is neutral.

    Also, I distrust any source that can't spell 'mockeries' or 'invariably'.
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  28. - Top - End - #28
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    Cracklord's Avatar

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Ghost Matyr's for paladins,
    Ghosts for Wizards
    Matyrs for clerics.
    Nadir We,
    Youth Born,
    Blood Letters,
    Axe Weilders,
    Victors Still.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    Good wizards go to heaven, bad wizards go everywhere

    Don't be a lich, be a ghost (whose alignment is often neutral and as the monster manual states, he needn't be confined in a space, also there are some variant powers in Monsters of Faerun)
    Also Archlich from Libris Mortis, And then you can trade your sucky lich abilities for better ones also found in monsters of faerun (an old 3.0 edition book, has some cool powers and you lose your "fear aura" to get one)
    Necropolitan is the best if you focus on spellcasting, but it always striked me as rather ... bland. However this is purely my opinion and frankly mechanics-wise its the best thing you can do.
    Lastly i think you can use sanctify the wicked to turn undead into good (but i am away from my books so i could be wrong, the spell and the template it applies is found on Book of Exalted Deeds)
    Last edited by peacenlove; 2009-11-04 at 12:09 AM.

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  30. - Top - End - #30

    Default Re: Evil Wizards Live Forever as Liches... Good Wizards Live Forever as...?

    I'm surprised no eberron buffs mentioned the Deathless.

    But in actuality, I'd say that evil wizards are liches. Good wizards are eventually zombies in the evil lich's armies.
    Last edited by PhoenixRivers; 2009-11-04 at 12:18 AM.

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