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    Default Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    I have a player in my group with a rogue / swashbuckler. Aiming for the Daring Outlaw feat.

    He has two weapons, both of which he uses to sneak attack over the course of a full round (2 attacks each). Clearly, at level 10, he's not supposed to get to do (weapon damage + 4d6) 4 times... but what's the rule that says he can't?
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    There is no rule to say he can't, that's a basic rogue strategy for doing damage.

    assuming rapiers, if all hit (including his two that are at a pretty low attack bonus by that point) he'll average about 70 damage. Charging melee builds do even more, with a lower chance of any of their damage being lost to missed attacks.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Holy crap.

    Now, can that be combined with a feint (I think that's the right word. Basically he yells "HEY LOOK OVER THERE" and rolls a bluff check)?

    Cause if so... *mindboggle*
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Not really. Feint only works on your next attack, and either takes a standard or move action. Plus, TWF requires a full attack, which means the squishy rouge is standing next to the big bruiser for a round.
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    You check for each attack if he gets SA benefits.. If he gets them from something that works on all attacks (greater invisibility, flanking, flatfooted oppontent) then yeah, SA is for all attacks..

    And you need to get a few feats for feint.. The improved feint lets you do it as a move action, which still isn't really good as it won't let you do a full attack.. I think only if you do it next turn.. But it might say that he is flatfooted only for the next attack.. then no dice..

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    Last edited by Sliver; 2009-11-04 at 12:05 AM.
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    There's a few.

    1.)Can't sneak attack unless the opponent is flat-footed. This means to pull off those 4 sneak attacks he has to get 5 feet away from something without them being aware of him. Without help from magic or some very amazing hide checks it'll never happen.

    2.)Can't sneak attack unless the opponent is flanked. He's gotta bring a buddy with him to help him beat on the monster and he's gotta spend one turn getting in position before he can unleash the d6s of death.

    3.) all attacks take -2 for 2 weapon fighting, and 2 of the attacks take an additional -5. It's very unlikely they will all hit. (No matter how much we rogues want them all to...)

    4.)Undead, constructs, oozes, plants... seems like half the monster manual is immune to critical hits and sneak attack. depends on the campaign of course.

    Honestly, take if from someone who's played a few rogues. If he can pull off 4 sneak attacks in a round on something, he deserves to kill it. Give him his triumph It sounds scary, but it is really hard to pull off in practice and is very well balanced compared to some of the other classes at level 10.
    Last edited by KnightOfV; 2009-11-04 at 12:05 AM.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by root9125 View Post
    Holy crap.

    Now, can that be combined with a feint (I think that's the right word. Basically he yells "HEY LOOK OVER THERE" and rolls a bluff check)?

    Cause if so... *mindboggle*
    No, feinting is a move action, meaning he can't do it and full attack in the same round. Flanking is generally how Rogues do it, though by now he may go for reliable access to something like Blink or Greater Invis.
    Keep in mind that his attack routine is probably at something like +15/+15/+10/+10, whereas a charger is looking at +23/+18 and deals something like 84 damage per hit(unoptimized).
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Sneak attack dice look a lot more impressive than they really are. 10d6 sneak attack damage only averages 35 damage, which, at level 20, really isn't all that, even if added to each attack on a full attack (even dual-wielding).
    Last edited by Lycanthromancer; 2009-11-04 at 12:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by KnightOfV View Post
    There's a few.

    1.)Can't sneak attack unless the opponent is flat-footed. This means to pull off those 4 sneak attacks he has to get 5 feet away from something without them being aware of him. Without help from magic or some very amazing hide checks it'll never happen.

    4.)Undead, constructs, oozes, plants... seems like half the monster manual is immune to critical hits and sneak attack. depends on the campaign of course.
    1) Acting first in combat works too, but then you probably have to move to the enemy and get off 1 attack before he does..

    4) If your DM is planning on using those creatures a lot, it is only fair you should know about it. There are ways to get through those immunities.
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    If he gets Haste cast on him he'll get another attack as well.

    Sneak Attack damage on its own probably is sub-optimal as compared with a fighter, so I've always thought personally you have to focus on the frequency of getting those attacks in rather than the damage as such.

    And the frequency of Sneak Attack damage gets better if he takes Telling Blow and uses a rapier with the keen quality. Sneak attack damage on flanking or being flatfooted? Good. Potentially, sneak attack damage anytime you roll 15 or over? Better.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil the Cat View Post
    assuming rapiers, if all hit (including his two that are at a pretty low attack bonus by that point) he'll average about 70 damage. Charging melee builds do even more, with a lower chance of any of their damage being lost to missed attacks.
    Or bad damage rolls.

    +4d6 you say? *hmms*

    Now keep in mind this is just from memory, but that +4d6 means he's level what, 7? So, level 4 swashbuckler, BAB +9 gives him +9/+4 and then +9/+4 on his offhand (if I recall correctly). That's four attacks, assuming they all hit (he's using +1 flaming shortswords for this argument) he'll be doing 5d6+1d6 fire +... 7/5 (strength). That's essentially (6d6 + 7) *2 + (6d6+5)*2, which means 16d6+24, which averages to 64 damage, and also maxes at 130 damage.

    A Lion Totem Barbarian at that level will be PAing for 11, shock troopering that away, with a strength of probably 25 at this point (18 base, +4 item, +3 points) and using a +3 weapon (for our purposes, +1 Flaming Shocking Greatsword). His BAB will be +11/+6/+1, so he'll get three attacks, and be dealing... 4d6+32 per attack, for (4d6+32)*3 12d6+96 damage. The minimum damage for this LT Barbarian is 108 which is almost double the rogue's average damage, and the maximum damage is 192, with the average being 152.

    Add to this the LTB has a much higher chance of hitting (+11/+6/+1 as opposed to +9/+4, as well as a higher strength) as well as the fact that there are tons of enemies immune to sneak attack (Seriously, throw a construct at the rogue and watch him cry, or undead) and what you're encountering is pretty standard affair from a Rogue.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Compared with a good charging build a rogue's dice is suboptimal. If none such fighter exists Sneak Attack CAN be very useful. But not always (as illustrated above with immunities and conditions for sneak attack) and it usually relies on magic (Bluff vs Sense motive +BAB... crazy hard to work).

    total of 20d6 over 4 attacks (dr) assuming they all hit, sneak attack conditions are met, full round, and the creature isn't immune.

    Compare to some spell the wizard has at there disposal and the balance seems obvious.

    Cloud Kill, Wall of Stone, Dominate Person (and Mindfog to make sure this works), Wall of Force, OVERLAND FLIGHT, Polymorph, ANIMATE DEAD, Greater Invisibility, Solid Fog.

    Why just kill the enemy when you can take them over as a minion? Thats without even thinking of fireballs (which if hits more than two enemies is comparable damage per round and is a 3rd level spell).

    Edit: My examples are level 10 since OP brought up level 10. So 5d6 sneak attack.
    Last edited by Animefunkmaster; 2009-11-04 at 12:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by root9125 View Post
    I have a player in my group with a rogue / swashbuckler. Aiming for the Daring Outlaw feat.
    ...
    Clearly, at level 10, he's not supposed to get to do (weapon damage + 4d6) 4 times... but what's the rule that says he can't?
    Clearly, you aren't paying attention to what other classes can do. From the math it looks like there's only one way this can work: 8 levels of Rogue followed by 2 of Swashbuckler, which would have the qualifications for Daring Outlaw come after the 9th level feat slot. That's BAB +8, or AB +6 with Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, which must have been the level 9 feat. A Lion Spiritual Totem Barbarian with Leap Attack and a lance can charge and do a lot more. 4d6 4 times averages 56 points. The Barbarian using Power Attack with a lance for 6 points is also attacking at AB +6. But the Barbarian does +30 points on the first swing, and +18 on the second, for +48. The Rogue/Swashbuckler gets +STR twice and +½ STR twice, for a total of +3xSTR. The Barbarian gets +2xSTR twice, for a total of +4xSTR, and the Barbarian's STR is going to be much higher. So they're roughly on par for damage here.

    But wait -- I didn't include the Barbarian's Rage in any of this. At level 10 that boosts their STR by +4, meaning they can Power Attack for 2 more points, resulting in +24 more points of damage. The Rogue/Swashbuckler is left in the dust.

    Next level the Barbarian will both get a 3rd attack and get +2 more points of STR with their Rage. Get to level 12 and the Rogue/Swashbuckler can finally take Daring Outlaw and get their sneak attack up to 6d6, but they still lag behind the Barbarian, even with optimal conditions (i.e., a flanking partner already in place and an enemy that's not immune to sneak attack). The Barbarian needs just one thing: a clear path for charging.

    The only thing that's really special about sneak attack is how very situational it is. While you can make it work well enough to benefit from it, doing so really eats up your feats. The Barbarian I posited above used just two feats. You've got three listed, even with Swashbuckler providing the necessary Weapon Finesse for "free". So the Barbarian has plenty of room for improvement. Just search for "übercharger" and you'll get plenty of reasons why sneak attack isn't anywhere close to overpowered.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Clearly, you aren't paying attention to what other classes can do. From the math it looks like there's only one way this can work: 8 levels of Rogue followed by 2 of Swashbuckler, which would have the qualifications for Daring Outlaw come after the 9th level feat slot. That's BAB +8, or AB +6 with Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, which must have been the level 9 feat. A Lion Spiritual Totem Barbarian with Leap Attack and a lance can charge and do a lot more. 4d6 4 times averages 56 points. The Barbarian using Power Attack with a lance for 6 points is also attacking at AB +6. But the Barbarian does +30 points on the first swing, and +18 on the second, for +48. The Rogue/Swashbuckler gets +STR twice and +½ STR twice, for a total of +3xSTR. The Barbarian gets +2xSTR twice, for a total of +4xSTR, and the Barbarian's STR is going to be much higher. So they're roughly on par for damage here.
    Why does the barbarian do less damage on swing two? And why does he have Str*2, not Str*3?

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by sofawall View Post
    Why does the barbarian do less damage on swing two?
    Because the Leap Attack feat (with errata) specifies "this attack" for its benefit. So while the Barbarian gets Pounce to allow a full attack, Leap Attack is still limited to just the first attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by sofawall View Post
    And why does he have Str*2, not Str*3?
    I goofed. The Barbarian is supposed to get 1½xSTR twice, for a total of 3xSTR (matching the Rogue/Swashbuckler), but with a bigger STR mod. This doesn't really change anything, does it? The charging Barbarian out-performs the Rogue on damage, and needs fewer feats to do so.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Another method to prevent sneak attacks:
    Form the SRD:
    A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
    So just give your enemies some potions of blur and the rogue cannot sneak attack. Even if he is flanking a flat-footed opponent. As a DM you can very easily control which enemies can be sneak attacked.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinech View Post
    So just give your enemies some potions of blur and the rogue cannot sneak attack. Even if he is flanking a flat-footed opponent. As a DM you can very easily control which enemies can be sneak attacked.
    That's why it's occasionally worthwhile to use a keen rapier with the Telling Blow feat, because it will add precision damage
    • beyond 30' range
    • regardless of concealment
    • without needing 10' of movement first (for skirmish)
    You just need a critical hit.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by root9125 View Post
    He has two weapons, both of which he uses to sneak attack over the course of a full round (2 attacks each). Clearly, at level 10, he's not supposed to get to do (weapon damage + 4d6) 4 times
    It's single target damage, it needs a full attack ... clearly he isn't doing enough damage yet in a splatbook based campaign!

    Anyway, don't worry about it ... even a core caster without metamagic reducers throwing around fireballs is easily in the same damage output range, they will do a little less single target, but they really should at that.

    Never understood how anyone could be perfectly all right with all those D6's from AoE casters and then get scared by only a couple more from a single target rogue.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinech View Post
    As a DM you can very easily control which enemies can be sneak attacked.
    Why would you want to? Making a primary combat-based character (swashbuckler) feel useless in combat isn't a very good idea. Could very well risk a wipe if the Daring Outlaw is the prime striker.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    That's why it's occasionally worthwhile to use a keen rapier with the Telling Blow feat, because it will add precision damage
    • beyond 30' range
    • regardless of concealment
    • without needing 10' of movement first (for skirmish)
    You just need a critical hit.
    ..and a target that isn't immune against critical hits, but I assume that's a given. I'm nitpicking for the sake of completeness. :)

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Foryn Gilnith View Post
    Why would you want to? Making a primary combat-based character (swashbuckler) feel useless in combat isn't a very good idea. Could very well risk a wipe if the Daring Outlaw is the prime striker.
    To make certain combats more exciting?
    The player needs another strategy or needs to be prepared to counter the enemy's defenses.

    I find it rather boring if any enemy can be defeated by the same tactics. But maybe thats just me...

    Edit: But you're right, you should be VERY careful if the primary striker relies on sneak attack.
    Last edited by Divinech; 2009-11-04 at 11:15 AM.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Making targets merely immune is not exciting IMO. Simply using undead or blur potions is not exciting. Making it difficult to set up a flank, or difficult to close to melee - that gives me a challenge. But blur-based concealment immunity is just "No, screw you" no matter how hard I tacticize.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    The Invisible Blade PrC, at 4th level, gives feinting as a free action with a dagger, punching dagger, or kukri. At 5th level, you can take 10 on feints.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinech View Post
    To make certain combats more exciting?
    The player needs another strategy or needs to be prepared to counter the enemy's defenses.

    I find it rather boring if any enemy can be defeated by the same tactics. But maybe thats just me...

    Edit: But you're right, you should be VERY careful if the primary striker relies on sneak attack.
    There's no counter for Blur/Blink if you aren't a spellcaster (Trueseeing is hard to get).


    Seriously, Sneak Attack is overrated. People react to it poorly. Most of the other posters in this thread are right; there's nothing wrong with the Daring Outlaw getting Sneak Attack on every attack.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    There's no counter for Blur/Blink if you aren't a spellcaster (Trueseeing is hard to get).
    Pierce Magical Concealment would like a word with you...

    And the Scout's Headband is only, what, 3400 GP?

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by industrious View Post
    The Invisible Blade PrC, at 4th level, gives feinting as a free action with a dagger, punching dagger, or kukri. At 5th level, you can take 10 on feints.
    Other way round I think. And it was errated to be a swift action. (The hulk on the hand was untouched...)

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    As has been pointed out, it is far more difficult for the Rogue to get into 'sneak attack position' than first seems possible. Either you need a beatstick to flank with, or you need convenient circumstances.

    Also, note that a level 5 Barbarian also ignores flanking and flat-footed, making it almost impossible to sneak attack them. So a charging Orc Barbarian, despite being a lower CR and ECL, is going to mop the floor with that Rogue.
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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    As has been pointed out, it is far more difficult for the Rogue to get into 'sneak attack position' than first seems possible. Either you need a beatstick to flank with, or you need convenient circumstances.

    Also, note that a level 5 Barbarian also ignores flanking and flat-footed, making it almost impossible to sneak attack them. So a charging Orc Barbarian, despite being a lower CR and ECL, is going to mop the floor with that Rogue.
    I thought uncanny dodge just allowed you to keep your dex to AC when flatfooted. You could still be caught ff.

    As for flanking with the beatstick, yes its hard to set up and, it leaves you adjacent to a monster to whom you've just caused quite a lot of pain. Oh yeah, you also have the second worse hit die in the game.
    Last edited by Boci; 2009-11-04 at 06:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Pierce Magical Concealment would like a word with you...

    And the Scout's Headband is only, what, 3400 GP?
    Pierce Magical Concealment has at least 2 feats required to take it, as well as ranks in a skill not many scout/swashies can afford to take. Depending on when you can take those ranks, it's probably not available at that lower level anyways.

    That said, it's a great solution, and pairs even better once you have the holy trinity of Mage Slayer, PMC, and PMP. Plus a level of favored enemy: arcanist ranger if you can afford it.
    Play a wizard. Be the Goddamn Batman.

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    Default Re: Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    I thought uncanny dodge just allowed you to keep your dex to AC when flatfooted. You could still be caught ff.
    It is the 'denied dex bonus to AC' part which allows you to use sneak attack. Without denying him Dex Bonus to AC, you have no sneak attack

    Citation:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2009-11-04 at 06:31 PM.
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