"Okay, It's time to run now"

[BRC]

Players tend to gain a certain Mindset. Most of the time, everytime they encounter some grave threat they go into it with the expectation that the DM has things calculated so that the warband of marauding orcs will be tough enough to cause a challenging and exciting battle, but that the intent is for you to smash some faces and emerge victorious.

But sometimes that's not the point. Sometimes, in both reality, in fiction, and in DnD, the situation calls for turning tail and running for the Hills.
The question is, how does a humble DM like me convey this. How do I, without saying "Run Now", get my players to know that this is not a threat they can handle.

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That's the general question, here's my specific situation:
My specific situation is thus. In this setting, there is a society of technologically advanced Kobolds, they created/bred Lizardmen to serve as soldiers and manual laborers. They also dislike their technology escaping to the Surface, and have created the SDPA (Surface Dweller Protection Agency) to prevent this from occuring. The PC's (Working for a renegade Kobold inventor) are recovering some schematics belonging to Said inventor from a Bank Vault, when a pair of SDPA agents arrive to recover them, and they're packing a brute squad of Lizardmen (The Agents themselves are deadly enough foes, but they're leaving this fight up to their Lizards). The PC's are supposed to take the schematics and get the hell out of Dodge. But how do I communicate this to my players without just saying "Get the hell out of dodge".

[Tavar]

Depends on the level/how they've been doing so far. For instance, especially below 10th or so, large swarms of enemies can be very deadly, so having numbers can be enough(that's the approach the DM in the game with Dwarven Mcdwarvenstien in my Sig used). Another possiblity is having them do something impressive that can be used as a gauge of power. For instance, say that the bank has a really impressive vault that the PC's laboriously crack. Have the SDPA agents just take it out/have the lizard men just come straight through the wall.

[Sploosh]

I've always been a fan of a cinematic introduction to give the hint. See the kobolds coming? Okay, make sure the first attacks are done in a way to highlight the power disparity.

That arrow didnt hit his AC. Did it bounce off its hide/armor? No, it catches it in its teeth and then eats it. The PCs smack it with a sword? It laughs and spits on them.

If that doesn't work, foreboding scenary can thematically clue them in. Perhaps they see a large amount of blood coating the floor? Maybe the place is far too quiet, with all too calm killers there.

When in doubt, we simply pull out the big guns and toss out an NPC for your bad boys to utterly destroy shortly before the encounter.

Edit: semi-ninja

[TheLogman]

The first thing you need to do is impress upon the players that the objective is to get the plans back to the inventor. Make it time sensitive, make the plans fragile or cumbersome, so fighting can't be done with them out of the vault.

Then, make is so it is clearly more advantageous for the players to run than fight. Make the Kobolds seem stronger, or even nigh invincible. Have them use magics or weapons that the players have never seen before and couldn't fight against.

[Mando Knight]

Play music that'll make them think "oh crap" like Vs Ridley or something from Metal Gear...

Also, have the kobolds ride the lizardmen. And have both wear armor. And give the mounted kobold a lance.

[BRC]

The PC's are 3rd level by the way.

How about this, the PC's have the key, which lets them waltz right up to the appropriate vault No Questions Asked. Past the thick doors and the impressive looking guards. The Kobolds just blast a hole in the wall with a Disentigun. Their Lizardmen step over the bleeding corpses of the armored Ogres they had on duty. The message will be clear, Do. Not. Mess. With. The. SDPA.

The Kobolds, BTW, wear black suits (Think MIB). The Lizardmen will probably be in trenchcoats wielding primitive shotguns (Basically just big Metal Tubes. A powder charge and a bunch of shrapnel is inserted inside it. Nothing Surface dweller's couldn't build. The Kobolds have more advanced weapons, but at this point they're not willing to risk bringing large numbers of that tech to the surface. Mind you the SPDA agents themselves (Kib (Kobold in Black) and Sak (Secret Agent Kobold) have plenty of tech and weapons on them, but they are also much less likely to leave tech behind, considering part of that gear teleports them back and all their stuff back home if they get too wounded, or say a command word ).

[jmbrown]

I always liked monsters in waves. Give the PCs a tough encounter (maybe an advance team) that they can beat by the skin of their teeth. When that's finished, allude them that the big guns are coming. Let them see that the advancing party is 2x as large as the ones they barely just defeated. Give them plenty of time to come up with an escape plan and if they're lallygagging start pelting them with arrows or spells from far away.

If that still doesn't work then the PCs are stupid and deserve to die.

[golentan]

Smashing the security works.

Another option, if you've got a powerful NPC who's no longer necessary, have him buy it in a single shot.

I like to keep a handful of NPCs like this (3-4 levels higher than the PCs, demonstrated periodically without stepping on their toes or taking over the plot) just to get offed right before a "Your only mission is to survive the next 5 rounds and put several walls between you and this encounter" type encounters.

Or, inside jokes about previous TPKs or near TPKs. "Hey, you remember the Zip gun?" "... Yeah?" "Evasion won't help this time. Just sayin."

[AgentPaper]

I always liked monsters in waves. Give the PCs a tough encounter (maybe an advance team) that they can beat by the skin of their teeth. When that's finished, allude them that the big guns are coming. Let them see that the advancing party is 2x as large as the ones they barely just defeated. Give them plenty of time to come up with an escape plan and if they're lallygagging start pelting them with arrows or spells from far away.

If that still doesn't work then the PCs are stupid and deserve to die.

This. Give the players their standard challenging encounter with 10 orcs, or somesuch, and then have 40 more orcs come rampaging in as reinforcements. One thing to avoid, though, is railroading the characters if they do decide to stand and fight, for whatever reason. Play the encounter out, let them die if they really can't handle it, and more importantly, let them win if they can pull it off. If the players beat down your 40 orcs, don't bring in 80 ogres to try and force them to run. (Unless, of course, there would logically BE 80 ogres that would come in if the 40 orcs were beaten, IE right outside the camp of a horde of orcs/ogres, but even in that case there should be some reward for doing the impossible and beating the 40 orcs)


An alternative to reinforcements would be to have the players fight a tough encounter, for example let's use the orcs again. At some point, the players fight an encounter against 10 orcs. It's a pretty tough encounter, injuries are had, but they pull through, as expected. Then, later on, (though not too much later on) they see a band of 40 orcs, fighting the big monster thing you want the players to run from. They then proceed to witness the big monster thing wipe the orcs out in a manner of seconds.

In any case, you just need to establish beforehand that this is something the players can't deal with. Seeing the monsters they just had trouble beating running away like little girls is another good way, and an NPC telling the players about any of these types of events can also work.

[JonestheSpy]

I've made this point before, but it's worth repeating: If you look at the great works of fantasy/adventure literature, from Lord of the Rings to Star Wars to Watership Down, you'll notice that the heroes spend a lot of time running away.

It's a really Bad Idea for players to believe that every encounter is "challenging but winnable" or whatever. Fear is good for them - makes the great wins that much sweeter.

[Temet Nosce]

Generally speaking I have this talk with players before I ever start the game. I sit down, and inform them flat out that there will be encounters which they have no chance of winning in a traditional manner, and possibly encounters they will essentially have no chance of winning period. They should, at all times pay attention to clues about their enemies and pick their fights. I'm going to assume you didn't warn the players beforehand from what you're saying though (you really should, since the default is kinda the opposite).

So, here's what you do. They're third level? Let them get clear evidence that the enemies have access to things they won't for a long time, and provide serious circumstantial evidence of their power. Allow any knowledge/gather information rolls the players want to give them information on it, and try to inform them in advance about the power level of their enemies (maybe have their employer mention the possibility of running into them, and warn them to stay clear).

What not to do - Get them into a fight then make it obvious they're vastly superior. Otherwise the players are A. going to feel like you purposefully stopped them from dying (if they're that much better why are the players still alive?), and B. feel useless. If you can't avoid it and they fight the enemies don't hold back, killing the players now will make for a better feeling of risk in the future at least.

Instead, provide the players with a sense of accomplishment in snatching the plans out from under the nose of more powerful foes. Try to work out easy ways the players could cause damage/irritation to their foes and leave them scattered around (alarms for the bank, traps, etc).

[Crafty Cultist]

Spell levels give a good measure of power. if the kobolds teleport in, you know they're at least 9th level and if they blast the guards with fireballs it shows they have spells to burn

[Zen Master]

The thing that my pc's will eventually flee from is overwhelming numbers - typically in the form of constant reinforcements.

It's crude I admit, but say my pc's are jumped by 6 goons. The goons hit hard, but go down readily enough. However, more goons emerge from nearby allyways, sewers, rooftops, whatever. This quickly gives the impression that A) someone is determined enough to have sent a large number of henchcreatures, and B) they will eventually wear down the pc's.

Flight ensues.

Luckily this isn't something I need to do very often. As I said, it's crude and predictable, but at least it works.

[Thespianus]

This. Give the players their standard challenging encounter with 10 orcs, or somesuch, and then have 40 more orcs come rampaging in as reinforcements.

It can also be worth pointing out to the players that the 40 orcs that are approaching them are more heavily armored, but that they seem to be moving slower because of this. The *obvious* hint is, ofcourse, that IF the PCs run away, they will get away.

(And, yeah, that *if* they stay and fight, they'll miss more than when they fought the 10 orcs, because of heavier armor, and..well, there's 4 times more orcs this time)

[Curmudgeon]

At the start of every game session I like to refer to DMG Table 3-2: Encounter Difficulty, which points out that fully 5% of all encounters should be 5 or more levels higher than what the party should ordinarily be able to handle.

This doesn't tell them when to run away, but it does remind them that sometimes they should.

[Arokh]

Well, I personally would recommend a more narativ style to solve this problem.
E.g. when passing one of the ogre guards, tell them: "...you pass an enourmous ogre, clad in a rather impressive armour. You are pretty sure he could easiely grab you and rip of your head without any significant effort...."

Later, once the Lizardmen arrive, let one of them rend said ogre (or several) into tiny little pieces, similary without any effort.
If this does not help, I am officially out of ideas.

So long, Arokh.

[oxinabox]

... recently I've decalopend a Rincewind kinda attatude "When the going gets tough, i get going"

of cause recently we've fought a solar and balor at lvl 13, you get like that.

[Totally Guy]

There was this on time we were being arrested by goblins for "Pollution" because we knew someone that had a robot.

Yeah, we tried reasoning with them but when they wouldn't listen to us then we tried to run.

First there was a squad of police goblins.

Then a bit further off the battle mat there was a bigger squad of army goblins.

Then in the next area there was a bigger squad of jet-pack police goblins.

The campaign ended when we questioned them about the levels of jet pack pollution.

[AgentPaper]

If you want to give them a subtle hint, remind them that they get XP for dealing with challenges, which may or may not include killing them.

[Eldariel]

Sense Motive-check can be used to gauge how tough certain opponents are. I find this extremely useful. Also opens players up to not knowing how tough the opposition is and having the opponents bluff them out.


A related story: A party of mine had once ended up in the possession of the Staff of Power around level 6 (don't ask, certain opponent-they-weren't-supposed-to-fight-with had rolled very poorly and the party had rolled very well).

They didn't know it was a Staff of Power due to Magic Aura masking it as a Staff of Fire though. Since Staff of Power could cast Fireball too, they didn't really figure it out especially since they didn't want to waste charges (obviously).

Couple of levels later, the party ended up on the Astral Plane (again, a long story) en route to the City of Doors and were waylaid by Efreeti. Now, Efreeti aren't terribly powerful but they do have a good Bluff. Instead of fighting them, thanks to the Efreet's bluff, they figured there's no chance they could win and ended up handing over the Staff (that the Efreet had been hunting for for a while; he knew its true nature) as a tithe and proceeded peacefully forward; the Efreet of course promptly Plane Shifted away since it knew even with the Staff it'd be no match for the party and that it already got what it wanted.

[blackseven]

It's been pointed out before, but to make it explicit:

Make sure that your PCs actually CAN outrun whatever they are supposed to run from.

If you have any 20 ft. move PCs, or send enemies with more than 30 ft. move, PCs are not going to get away (at lower levels).

I remember one of my DMs got frustrated because our party NEVER ran away. I eventually had to point out that since we had a gnome, we couldn't run away from anything faster than 20 ft. speed, and that "running" would mean "leaving the gnome to die."

[valadil]

You'll probably after to tell them, at least initially. I ran a thieves guild game a couple years ago. I told my players that in addition to normal encounters there were also escape scenes. The win condition for an escape scene was simply getting away - if you stayed and fought you died. The first few times I told them which encounters were escapes. Once they accepted that there were fights they couldn't win (and that running away was a valid source of XP) they were happy to evaluate encounters on their own.

[t_catt11]

Before I satrt a game, I always let me players know that adventuring is dangerous, that characters can and do die - especially from stupidity. All it usually takes is one death and the players start to handle things more realistically. If you have given clues and they stand and fight anyway, a TPK will probably ensure that they do not do so in the future.

[BRC]

Later, once the Lizardmen arrive, let one of them rend said ogre (or several) into tiny little pieces, similary without any effort.

I might have the Kobolds do that. The Lizardmen are mooks at this point, and I'm expecting the PC's to take a few down on their way out. But watching one of the Kobolds blast an Ogre to smithereens with some sort of Supermagic is diffferent.
Or better yet, they don't actually see the Kobolds take down the Ogres. They just see smoking pairs of giant armored boots where the Ogres were standing.

[Choco]

It's been pointed out before, but to make it explicit:

Make sure that your PCs actually CAN outrun whatever they are supposed to run from.

If you have any 20 ft. move PCs, or send enemies with more than 30 ft. move, PCs are not going to get away (at lower levels).

I remember one of my DMs got frustrated because our party NEVER ran away. I eventually had to point out that since we had a gnome, we couldn't run away from anything faster than 20 ft. speed, and that "running" would mean "leaving the gnome to die."

QFT, that, or give them a way to slow their enemy down or escape where the enemy cant reach (It makes for a good encounter where the faster/tougher PC's have to hold off the epic creature for a round or two until the slower/squishier party members make it to safety before running themselves), etc.

Sadly, my players originally also assumed that anything I placed in their way was there for them to squish. Despite all the clues, they still tried their luck. In situations like that, you may have to kill off some of the party members to get the point across. It only took 1 time for my PC's to learn

[valadil]

E.g. when passing one of the ogre guards, tell them: "...you pass an enourmous ogre, clad in a rather impressive armour. You are pretty sure he could easiely grab you and rip of your head without any significant effort...."

Later, once the Lizardmen arrive, let one of them rend said ogre (or several) into tiny little pieces, similary without any effort.
If this does not help, I am officially out of ideas.

I call this the pro wrestling school of thought. And I mean that in a good way. Wrestling isn't so popular with geeks though, so maybe I should retitle it the transitive property of badass.

In math the transitive property says that if a>b and b>c then it follows that a>c. This applies directly to enemies in D&D. Let them fight the big ogre. Give them a tough fight. Make them feel like they were lucky to win the fight against just one ogre. Then show them someone else killing 5. In their eyes, that someone else just became Hulk Hogan (to go back to wrestling terminology).

[Telok]

Sometimes people won't take a hint.

Suggestion: Try to take the PCs alive. The PCs can tell the kobold authorities where the rogue inventor is, so killing them just makes more work for the kobolds. This means that your big lizardmen are armed with only nets and saps. But these are big lizardmen, not smart lizardmen. When a lizardman takes more than about 5 damage in a hit have him drop his net or sap and revert to his natural claw/claw/bite routine. Be sure to tear the PC a new hole with this attack, fake the rolls so they all hit and do about 80% of his HP in damage. Since this is a violation of the orders the kobolds gave (remember the kobolds?) one of them will use his delayed action and Disintegrate the lizardman, maybe twin the spell and dust two of the lizards as an object lesson for the others.

At this point the lizardmen will go back to using non-lethal attacks, the kobolds will keep holding their actions, and the PCs should know to run away. If they don't, then they get captured and mindraped.

[KitTheOdd]

I find this topic funny because, while I understand and thin it is important, my only personal experience is the opposite.

It was in a SWSE game. Our team had nearly been wiped out in a fight relatively early on in the campaign. So we all got super paranoid. My pilot/scoundrel type started taking soldier levels for armor and building the biggest and baddest armor he could. The Jedi started taking almost exclusively defensive powers. etc. etc. etc. And we always planned for failure and how to get away if things started going badly. ALWAYS. After several months (1 session every 2 weeks) the GM got sick of it and told us all that we were the heroes, that the encounters were supposed to challenging but winnable, that the near-TPK was a fluke, to stop being paranoid, that Star Wars was swashbuckling adventure (not his words), and basically to just stop being wimps and start kicking butt.

We are still paranoid.

[Person_Man]

I explicitly tell my players before the campaign starts that the problems presented in the plot line have multiple solutions, and that just walking up to the enemies and beating them until dead is usually the most difficult path. If they want to survive, they need to be wise about when to run, when to roleplay, when to use Skills, when to set a trap, when to gather allies, etc. I find that this tends to have the desired effect - although every once in a while a PC dies, and they have to re-learn the lesson.

[truemane]

I've always been fond of non-lethal combat. You fight the bad guys, they take away your weapons and tie you up and put you in a truck and you spend a few sessions getting away.

Next time they meet, PC's are WAY more cautious.

Not every problem needs to be solved by a TPK on one side or the other.