New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 100
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    I wish I knew...
    Gender
    Male

    Default In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    Had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine the other day.

    She also GM's, although a much different style. She prohibits her players from talking to one another about what they are going to play, on the theory that it will create a more 'realistic' party makeup. Specifically, she believes the 'gold standard' party fighter/thief/wizard/cleric is old hat, and wants some variety.

    I pointed out that if I was a reasonably intelligent person who knew he was going out into danger, I wouldn't be moving until I had someone who could patch me up.

    She said that would be considered Metagaming, and in her game, I would be penalized for it.

    I asked if she thought any armed service personnel (any branch) would willingly enter a warzone without MASH (cleric) or Air Support (Wizard), because I rather doubt it.

    She retorted that the players wouldn't know that they would be going into a dangerous situation.

    I suppose it is a difference in play style. She would penalize, or prohibit, making sure the party was 'covering all the bases'. I expect and anticipate this, and even encourage it. Because, at least in my games, I don't put on kid gloves just because your party doesn't have an arcanist or a cleric. You'd better have some way of healing yourself if you don't have some kind of healer in the party, because otherwise the game might be very short.

    So, I throw this open to the fellow Playgrounders: Where do you sit on this sliding scale of character creation?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Banned
     
    Milskidasith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    You're friend is being unreasonable, and she doesn't help make a cohesive party by forcing people to make their own characters with no input from the other people. I mean, if you can talk, not only can you have a balanced party, but their backstories can synch up. With this, you could wind up getting a player who is a LG Human Fighter searching out the Orc who killed his father, the sheriff, and a CE Orc Fighter who is on the run from the law for killing a sheriff in a small town. That party would not be cohesive at all (they'd kill each other) and couldn't stop themselves from getting killed.

    Plus, if somebody is anything above first level, they are going to know that they're a bit more powerful than other people and probably have combat experience, so going without various methods of getting around common obstacles, like, say, being attacked, would be suicidally dumb IC as well as OoC.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2009-11-07 at 03:14 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    West Midlands, UK.

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    I agree with Milskidasith. If you're adventurers, why wouldn't you know that you're going into a deadly situation anyway?
    "It doesn't matter what you think I'm supposed to be, 'cause I myself know all too well." Line from "King of My World" by Saliva.
    Good itP 2009 winner,Cleric itP Winner.
    Taking Reiki requests. PM me for details.
    Spoiler
    Show


  4. - Top - End - #4
    Banned
     
    Milskidasith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    Another question: How much of the campaign do they no about? Would it also be metagaming at her games to know not to, say, built a sailor with levels in legendary captain only to find out it's an urban/desert game (RPing opportunities for a legendary captain transported onto an entirely dry world not withstanding)?
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2009-11-07 at 03:15 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    I wish I knew...
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    Another question: How much of the campaign do they no about? Would it also be metagaming at her games to know not to, say, built a sailor with levels in legendary captain only to find out it's an urban/desert game (RPing opportunities for a legendary captain transported onto an entirely dry world not withstanding)?
    I believe it is these RPing opportunities of playing a character unsuited to the environment which she wishes to encourage...

    After all, wasn't Paul Atreides born on an ocean world and achieved the majority of his deeds on a desert world?
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2009-11-07 at 03:20 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Banned
     
    Milskidasith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    True, but if you actually plan on writing a backstory it isn't going to make sense if you have no clue where you end up. As I said, it could open up interesting RP opportunities, but either you're all going to start with a DM Fiat "you're teleported to X location and are all together" which doesn't encourage cohesiveness, or you have to somehow scrap your backstory about being a captain on the *insert small sea you made up that can easily be plopped down as any decent sized body of water in the campaign map* because you're suddenly landlocked in a desert.

    Even if that makes "realistic" characters (and it doesn't; it creates characters built for widely different things, like an evil party, good party, low power party, high power party, glass cannons with no healing, tanks with no effective damage, etc.), the casting of "DM Teleport" ruins the realism of them being wherever they start out. I mean, sure, it would be cool if the captain was landlocked in the desert... but when he gets there by DM Fiat, I stop caring about the fourth wall and start caring about when we can get on a damn ship so I can play my character.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2009-11-07 at 03:25 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    As a DM and a player I love interrelated backstories. It gives parties realistic reasons to stay together and the potential for juicy plot hooks, suspense, drama, the works. Forcing players to come from completely disjoint backgrounds just lengthens the awkward period where everyone has to metagame just to make sure the party stays together, and it makes the DM's job of character motivation and story weaving that much harder.

    Forcing players to sequester themselves at character creation seems overbearing and stunts the budding (and very beneficial) party cooperation that can begin while they talk to each other about how they're going to work together. Also, obviously, I'd be able to throw a wider variety of challenges and obstacles at a more diverse party.

    That said, throwing challenges at a party without healing or an arcanist as though they had healing and an arcanist is just an over the top TPK waiting to happen, and that's no fun. If a professional boxer finds himself in the ring against a toddler, well, maybe he SHOULD put some kid gloves on. Just as I wouldn't want to punish players for some well-intentioned party optimization, I wouldn't punish them just because no one wanted to play a character with Fly on their spell list.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    I want tools to use in the game, not a blank check to do what I want. I can already do what I want.

  8. - Top - End - #8

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    I believe you need to tell your friend that she is a control freak, an idiot, and needs to learn that metagaming isn't inherently bad and that unless you're a neurotic twitching mess, metagaming is inevitable and *not* comprised of the devil doing his devil things.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    oxinabox's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    You want to be sure the party has some healing, then you play one.
    there are worse options that cleric or High Cha paladin.

    Certainly nice bases to multiclass from
    There is nothing on earth that we share; it is either Valjean or Javert!

    "A wizard can in fact be thought of the custodian to a familiar, a terrifying beast that charges its foes, slashing them to shreds while delivering their master's touch spells and bestowing upon their masters incredible bonuses to their hp or skill checks. A wizard is nearly powerless without one."

    Need to find a God? or Spell or Feat?

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Homeslice View Post
    I believe you need to tell your friend that she is a control freak, an idiot, and needs to learn that metagaming isn't inherently bad and that unless you're a neurotic twitching mess, metagaming is inevitable and *not* comprised of the devil doing his devil things.
    Is this how you treat your friends? I mean, I agree that metagaming is a necessary part of the game (and her DMing style probably increases it, at least initially, to keep the party together), but the rest is pretty harsh.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    I want tools to use in the game, not a blank check to do what I want. I can already do what I want.

  11. - Top - End - #11

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    Is this how you treat your friends? I mean, I agree that metagaming is a necessary part of the game (and her DMing style probably increases it, at least initially, to keep the party together), but the rest is pretty harsh.
    Yes, I'm probably overreacting, but things like this infuriate me because of personal experiences.

    And no, I don't treat my friends this way.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Homeslice View Post
    Yes, I'm probably overreacting, but things like this infuriate me because of personal experiences.

    And no, I don't treat my friends this way.
    Oh, I've had gaming friends used "metagamer" as a generic roleplayer pejorative, so I know where you're coming from. I would often be very tempted to call them out on their own metagaming behavior (however benign), but I thought better of it. The ones I still game with got over that bad habit, so all's well.

    Anyway, for the OP, this article by the Giant illustrates some cases of what I believe to be "not enough metagaming."

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    Have you ever had a party break down into fighting over the actions of one of their members? Has a character ever threatened repeatedly to leave the party? Often, intraparty fighting boils down to one player declaring, "That's how my character would react." Heck, often you'll be the one saying it; it's a common reaction when alignments or codes of ethics clash.

    However, it also creates a logjam where neither side wants to back down. The key to resolving this problem is to decide to react differently. You are not your character, and your character is not a separate entity with reactions that you cannot control. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a player state that their character's actions are not under their control. Every decision your character makes is your decision first. It is possible and even preferable for you to craft a personality that is consistent but also accommodating of the characters the other players wish to play.
    Last edited by GoodbyeSoberDay; 2009-11-07 at 03:47 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    I want tools to use in the game, not a blank check to do what I want. I can already do what I want.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    I disagree with the DM about it being metagaming. Or rather, bad metagaming. Some metagaming is good and absolutely essential. example, the CE orc who murders sheriff and the LG sheriff should not be playing together. Or a gith and a mind flayer...

    IRL: When I chose my college degree, when my friend joined the army, when another friend decided to become a lawyer because he was failing ochem, when the army sends forces that complement each other into battle.

    Whenever we make choices we consider the situation, and traveling with people of unvaried skills into near certain death is just stupid of your character to do. Especially if the location and companions have absolutely nothing to do with your skills or background. There is room to do so, but you better all be low int characters.

    If you are not insane and not stupid the first thing you should do is role play the following conversation:
    ok guys, we are going into surefire battle and I Am really uncomfortable about the fact we don't have anyone who can handle healing / traps / arcane magic... we better hire someone who can do it, or I am gonna have to find another group to adventure with... and if you cant find it... fine, retire character.

    Well, ok, you really SHOULDN'T do that, you should give it to the DM as a hypothetical situation.

    bottom line (as has been said before). It is horrible metagaming to make a random and unmatched group stick together. Coordinating characters means you do a little tiny bit of GOOD and NECESSARY metagaming up front so that you can significantly reduce meta gaming in game.
    Last edited by taltamir; 2009-11-07 at 07:06 AM.
    I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!

    the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Temet Nosce's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine the other day.

    She also GM's, although a much different style. She prohibits her players from talking to one another about what they are going to play, on the theory that it will create a more 'realistic' party makeup. Specifically, she believes the 'gold standard' party fighter/thief/wizard/cleric is old hat, and wants some variety.

    I pointed out that if I was a reasonably intelligent person who knew he was going out into danger, I wouldn't be moving until I had someone who could patch me up.

    She said that would be considered Metagaming, and in her game, I would be penalized for it.

    I asked if she thought any armed service personnel (any branch) would willingly enter a warzone without MASH (cleric) or Air Support (Wizard), because I rather doubt it.

    She retorted that the players wouldn't know that they would be going into a dangerous situation.

    I suppose it is a difference in play style. She would penalize, or prohibit, making sure the party was 'covering all the bases'. I expect and anticipate this, and even encourage it. Because, at least in my games, I don't put on kid gloves just because your party doesn't have an arcanist or a cleric. You'd better have some way of healing yourself if you don't have some kind of healer in the party, because otherwise the game might be very short.

    So, I throw this open to the fellow Playgrounders: Where do you sit on this sliding scale of character creation?
    Pretty much with you here, my characters mostly would end up not staying with such random "parties". I also tend to play characters who have a high level of competency in at least one area, and generally expect reasonably competent backup. If it's not forthcoming, they aren't going to be risking themselves for a bunch of deadweight or people who they have no reason to be around.

    This isn't metagaming, guess what is? Forcing such parties together. If the characters have no reason to be together, they shouldn't.

    Anyways, even as a player I tend to try to contact other party members beforehand and get their input/learn about their characters so that we have inbuilt reasons to work together. I also as a DM avoid the kidgloves, but that's something a bit separate.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    She's trying to run a different campaign than the one you had in mind. That's not necessarily bad. Just different. The DM and players need to come to an agreement on this prior to starting the game.

    You can play a game where you are all crack tombraiders: the reason you "adventure" is that you are all spectacular at your particular roles in a dungeon crawl. Or in a raid on a wizard's castle. Or whatever other high-risk activity you are going for. And if that's the story you all want to create: this crack team of undead-hunters goes out and hunts undead, then you should absolutely talk to each other about your roles.

    You can also play a game where you are all the cool people who happen to be on the boat to Allyria. You and a hundred NPCs all think you are going to have an uneventful (or fun or profitable) trip there, and then pirates strike, and then it becomes clear that the PCs are destined for greatness whereas the NPCs on that boat are not particularly. As a result you meet each other. And then adventure happens. If that's the story you want to create, then your DM's vision would work just fine.

    The problem is when you as a player want to play Game 1 and she as a DM wants to run Game 2. Pick one (or some compromise).

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Banned
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Flawse Fell, Geordieland

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    So, I throw this open to the fellow Playgrounders: Where do you sit on this sliding scale of character creation?
    "Generate what you like. It's not my character dying if you all overlook the obvious..."

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2009

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    Good day all,

    As a DM I go entirely the opposite route. I insist that before the players start creating their characters, they sit down and talk and create the party. They have to create the focus of the party before they consider individual characters. It is also up to them to determine why they have formed a party and why they're together. Of course I provide them all the information on the world they have and answer any questions.

    This little bit of meta-gaming up front prevents a lot later. The players and their characters are a team with built in reasons to be together and working towards a common goal. I can build my campaign around their party dynamic ensuring they get what they want and that the party is suited for what they must face.

    Forcing players to create characters in isolation is going to require a lot of metagaming and railroading to keep these random characters together. It is because I've seen this happen so many times in the past that I have gone the way I have.

    As a side benefit, I find that players are much more involved and interested in the campaign, the world and the party because they have already bought into it. They own a larger piece than just their own character. They have ownership and a vested interest in both their party and that parties goals.

    When a new player joins mid-stream I explain to them that the established players effectively have veto on their character as I'm not going to railroad them into having the new character adventure with them. So prior to starting the session I have the new player talk with the 'old guard' to come up with a character that will integrate seemlessly into the party.

    This does not eliminate intra-party conflict for those who wish such. It does restrict it to those who wish such. So players who want to develop inter-personal conflicts have to get at least one other player to agree to play off of. I've been a player in such a circumstance myself and it worked quite well. Mainly because we discussed it out of game beforehand. The rest of the party knew what was going on so didn't get upset at the occasional bout of PVP between us. And there were meta-game limits we set for ourselves that we built into the characters and their interwined backgrounds.

    Seriously, working these things out before hand has far more benefits and fewer problems than walking into a game blind. So far as I can see, the DM in the first post of this thread is asking for a headache.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Titan in the Playground
     
    The Rose Dragon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    Often, it is either destiny who brings the characters together or some equivalent thereof, so I try to go with a well rounded party.

    A well rounded party is defined as whatever White Wolf deems auspicious.

    In non-White Wolf games, group roles are often less well-defined, so a well rounded party doesn't really work.

    If I want to play AD&D, it doesn't matter what the party is like - they are going to be screwed.
    I use black for sarcasm.


    Call me Rose, or The Rose Dragon. Rose Dragon is someone else entirely.

    If you need me for something, please PM me about it. I am having difficulty keeping track of all my obligations.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    I pointed out that if I was a reasonably intelligent person who knew he was going out into danger, I wouldn't be moving until I had someone who could patch me up.

    She said that would be considered Metagaming, and in her game, I would be penalized for it.
    Have her read over the section of metagaming in the DMG or DMG2. Tell her metagaming is having a deep understanding of one's ability in-game; basic assumptions aren't counted by this. In a standard D&D world, everyone understands that clerics = healing, fighters = beating, rogues = sneaking, and wizards = everything in one. These are the basic assumptions of the world.

    When people gather they ask each other their abilities. Saying "I can cast x and x spells" and the other character, whose not a caster, says "I think you should cast y and y spells instead" would be metagaming.

    She retorted that the players wouldn't know that they would be going into a dangerous situation.
    Is she really this dense? Unless the PCs are simple farmers they wouldn't be walking around carrying half an armory and grouping together if they weren't going into dangerous situations. This is one of the weirdest comments I've ever read from a DM. The biggest assumption of D&D as a whole is that you're doing horribly death defying stunts with the expectation you'll be rewarded for it.

    So, I throw this open to the fellow Playgrounders: Where do you sit on this sliding scale of character creation?
    I want everyone to know what everyone else is playing. I want people to collaborate with back stories if they wish. What I don't like is the flippant sharing of character sheets and abilities. You can say in game "Hi, I'm a conjurer. I summon things" but what I despise is "Hi, I'm a conjurer. Here's a laundry list of my spells plus my character sheet so you may best direct me." I hate playing a game and someone says out loud "Dude you have this ability! Why don't you apply it directly now because I know better than you?" I can't stand that.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
    Douglas's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Mountain View, CA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    She retorted that the players wouldn't know that they would be going into a dangerous situation.
    Er, what?

    Unless she specifically designs her campaigns to a) make sure that is the case at the beginning and b) make sure there is no opportunity to ever recruit new party members after the danger becomes obvious, then that is utter and complete bullsh*t. If she does do so, then she is the one metagaming, to a rather extreme degree and in a very bad way.

    Have you asked her for some examples of typical quest hooks in her games?
    Like 4X (aka Civilization-like) gaming? Know programming? Interested in game development? Take a look.

    Avatar by Ceika.

    Archives:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Saberhagen's Twelve Swords, some homebrew artifacts for 3.5 (please comment)
    Isstinen Tonche for ECL 74 playtesting.
    Team Solars: Powergaming beyond your wildest imagining, without infinite loops or epic. Yes, the DM asked for it.
    Arcane Swordsage: Making it actually work (homebrew)

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by Sleepingbear View Post
    Good day all,

    As a DM I go entirely the opposite route. I insist that before the players start creating their characters, they sit down and talk and create the party. They have to create the focus of the party before they consider individual characters. It is also up to them to determine why they have formed a party and why they're together. Of course I provide them all the information on the world they have and answer any questions.

    This little bit of meta-gaming up front prevents a lot later. The players and their characters are a team with built in reasons to be together and working towards a common goal. I can build my campaign around their party dynamic ensuring they get what they want and that the party is suited for what they must face.

    Forcing players to create characters in isolation is going to require a lot of metagaming and railroading to keep these random characters together. It is because I've seen this happen so many times in the past that I have gone the way I have.
    All so true. As for the bold part, maybe this DM needs to have a learning experience... she will get what she wished for and find there is constant infighting, metagaming to keep the group together, railroading, no fun, fighting, etc...
    Problem is, that can easily ruin the playing experience for everyone.
    I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!

    the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Er, what?

    Unless she specifically designs her campaigns to a) make sure that is the case at the beginning and b) make sure there is no opportunity to ever recruit new party members after the danger becomes obvious, then that is utter and complete bullsh*t. If she does do so, then she is the one metagaming, to a rather extreme degree and in a very bad way.

    Have you asked her for some examples of typical quest hooks in her games?
    I don't think this quite makes sense. First of all, DMs are required to metagame. It's a major part of their job description. Second, obviously new party members would have to plausibly fit into the party in its current location.

    There's no reason you can't start with the assumption that the characters have no idea that they are about to start an adventure and be placed in mortal danger. It's a perfectly valid way to start an adventure. It's not the only way, of course, so you want to tell people in advance what it is you're doing.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Dimers's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    I like to have players plan out their group collaboratively, rather the opposite of the OP's friend. But but BUT ... during that process, I try to remind them that having unbalanced weaknesses and strengths is okay, that no matter what they do they can't have every ability in the book anyway, and that my DMing style is set up to avoid player death unless it's demanded by the nature of a well-roleplayed character. I agree with the friend that the thief/mage/healer/warrior layout of a party is unnecessary, and I don't like to see it. (I always root for underdogs, too.) I suspect she may be trying to avoid forcing players to take on certain roles just because they assume the party needs it.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    She said that would be considered Metagaming, and in her game, I would be penalized for it.
    Choosing to play any specific character is meta-gaming, as it is a decision made for OOC reasons. So are choosing to play at all and choosing to turn up each week, and by her logic you should be penalized for that (and it sounds like you will be).

    On the other hand, she might not actually believe that all meta-gaming is bad. She may just have not thought through what her position actually means. So, you could try talking to her about what meta-gaming is bad and what meta-gaming is good, and whether she wants you to avoid making the meta-game decision to play in her campaign.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    I'm going to chime in on the side of this No-Metagaming GM. I can't help but feel we haven't been given all the facts. If (and I stress 'if') she is running a fairly standard "Adventuring Ho!" campaign, then those that have spoken out against her are in the right; she's spelling a recipe for a rocky start. However, I myself have just started running a game where the PCs are not an 'adventuring group' in the typical sense. They haven't chosen to work together as a cohesive team and there is no reason for the party to cover all the bases except by fortuitous chance. In this game I'm hoping that the differences between the PCs will create a certain friction between them. If this is the sort of game she intends to run then she has my full support in her rule of not allowing the players to collaberate on their characters during CharGen.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Beholder

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Heading into the Sunset
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    I believe it is these RPing opportunities of playing a character unsuited to the environment which she wishes to encourage...

    After all, wasn't Paul Atreides born on an ocean world and achieved the majority of his deeds on a desert world?
    Paul Atreides was also the Messiah godlike tragic "hero". He doesn't necessarily fit a character mold, because he had author fiat.
    Play a wizard. Be the Goddamn Batman.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    As a rule of thumb, I never compensate players for the choices they make. If one choses to dumb charisma, he will not be well liked, and I will not arbitrarily help him buff his wisdom. If a caster choses a low con score - then discovers damage hurts him - he will have to live with that choice, or invest in solving it himself.

    As another rule of thumb, everyone should play something they enjoy. If that happens not to include a healer and an arcane caster, then so be it. In my current group, the rogue was the party healer until the psion got a couple of powers to assist with it.

    A further rule of thumb is that I limit powerplayers and boost non-powerplayers to achieve a certain level of coherence. That may include loot, or simply advice as to what is an effective strategy, build or way to achieve synergy with another players (a very simple advice I've actually given is to try to get flanking - so rogues get SA).

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Katana_Geldar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Sydney
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    My definition of metagaming is simple: anything that is considered a stretch on reality that is usually completely outside their knowledge.

    Here is an example.

    A DM needs to metagame all the time. What if the PCs go west instead of east where the Dungeon of Doomy Dooms is? They miserably fail several vital rolls and you don't want to kill them and throw the whole campaign out the window.

    There is a vast gulf between metagaming and what your character knows before the game as established by their background. I have found this to be the case in games when the game follows the content, like in Star Wars where characters will refer to Han Solo when he's only ten years old and a nobody.
    Avatar by Trixie.

    Running Tomb of Horrors 4E in all that horrific tombyness.

    My Blog The Level 1 GM


  29. - Top - End - #29
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    On the opposite end of the scale from this GM, I usually run campaigns where I devote the entire first session to telling the players about the world and then helping them to create an interlinked backstory. It makes my job as the GM that much easier because I don't have to force the players together and I can make more compelling plot hooks easier since they're all connected to each other. Plus, it often makes the players more invested in the campaign.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Katana_Geldar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Sydney
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: In game/Out of Game/Metagame

    And that means they're more than likely to show rather than give up halfway through and stop coming.
    Avatar by Trixie.

    Running Tomb of Horrors 4E in all that horrific tombyness.

    My Blog The Level 1 GM


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •