Taking Responsibility for Your Character's Actions or Why Roleplaying Servers Suck

[Aron Times]

Begin rant.

The first incarnation of Argent Gish (see below) was a mercenary wizard in a Neverwinter Nights roleplaying server. It was one of the best roleplaying communities I had ever encountered, or so I thought.

One day, Argent ran into a party of Banites whom he had previously worked for. He asks them if they might be in need of his services again, and after a huddled discussion, they take him with them. The Banites then go to a secluded temple, presumably to speak to their superiors.

Once we get it, they quickly lock the door behind them. Along comes their superior, a vampire, and the Banites offer Argent as his meal. Crap. Argent tries to persuade them that he would be much more useful alive to them than dead, but they would have none of it.

A few hours later, I ask the DM playing the vampire NPC if I could continue playing Argent as a thrall of the vampire (to explain him respawning back in town). He refused, telling me that Argent died in that hidden temple, and was now the vampire's food. Basically, if he was stupid enough to work for Banites, he deserved permadeath.

What?

The justification for Argent's permadeath was that everything happened in-character. The Banites were evil, and it was completely IC for them to sacrifice a random stranger to their vampire boss. I was not to take it personally, since what my character did IC was quite stupid.

Did it matter that the time I spent roleplaying and fleshing out Argent's personality had all gone to waste? No. As long as it's IC, it's a-okay.

I left the server in disgust soon after that, moving on to other, hopefully better ones. Each roleplaying server I joined had the IC is law rule, which means it's a-okay to screw a fellow player as long as it was done IC. I've found that such a rule basically encourages players to be *******s since they're reassured that they're not responsible for their character's actions.

And as the Milgram Experiment, the Stanford Prison Experiment, the Holocaust, and the Order of the Stick have taught us, the best way to get someone to do something evil is to convince him that he's not responsible for it.

So screw you, Escape from the Underdark, City of Arabel, Wanton Wicked, Shores of Haldun, Tales of Moonsea, In the Time of Heroes, and Terres. Screw you all!

End rant. What do you think?

[Gralamin]

Sounds like a problem of immature people running it. I know if I ran a server, I'd be against the whole idea of what happened to you. And if it did happen nonetheless, I would definitely let you play as the vampire's thrall.

In other words, people are supposed to have fun. Players who intentionally cause others not to have fun should be thrown out. Players who cause trouble, but of the type that encourages better games (IE: Instigators that don't go too far) can stay.

[Yukitsu]

I agree with them to an extent in that you sort of should have seen it coming, or should have been prepared for that sort of event. On the other hand, yeah, they do seem like jerks.

[Jack_Simth]

Or, you know, the server admin could have turned on the No-PVP flag universally.

Seriously. But yeah - I've just recently picked up NWN, and have been playing single-player so far. So you haven't found somewhere where people metagame in a good way, then?

[Mongoose87]

Bane is very Lawful. That seems somewhat out of character of his faith. Shouldn't they be more interested in wreaking misery on others than randomly feeding people to vampires?

[AstralFire]

My viewpoint on such issues is as such:

• People need to be able to be a jerk IC in order for roleplay to feel real.
• Being a jerk IC does not justify it OoC.
• Clarify the potential ramifications of what you are intending to do OoC with someone before doing it, especially (but not only) if it can have a long-term negative effect on the character.
• If the previous point is not possible (unlikely) or you didn't think before reacting (more likely), apologize OoC and offer options to remedy it if possible.

[kestrel404]

If you're allowing people to RP evil characters, and allowing them to do so in relative anonymity, then you're going to get this kind of behaviour. It's human nature (as the OP pointed out).

What do we do? We could ban evil PCs. This means the only evil in the game is of the NPC variety - which means you're playing Everquest. If you make 'Evil' a tribal thing and all the 'evil' people are supposedly friendly, then you're playing WoW in a PK server. And if you allow people to do whatever they feel like, act as they think they should IC, and otherwise be nasty to each other, then you're going to end up in this situation.

I don't have a really good solution here. If I did I could probably make a lot of money. If you want to play in that style of game, either take the licks your dealt and move on, or else play it like everyone else is out to get you (because they might be, and why take chances?).

[Gralamin]

I don't have a really good solution here. If I did I could probably make a lot of money. If you want to play in that style of game, either take the licks your dealt and move on, or else play it like everyone else is out to get you (because they might be, and why take chances?).

My viewpoint on such issues is as such:

• People need to be able to be a jerk IC in order for roleplay to feel real.
• Being a jerk IC does not justify it OoC.
• Clarify the potential ramifications of what you are intending to do OoC with someone before doing it, especially (but not only) if it can have a long-term negative effect on the character.
• If the previous point is not possible (unlikely) or you didn't think before reacting (more likely), apologize OoC and offer options to remedy it if possible.

AstralFire does have a good solution here. However, this is a player side responsibility, which means enforcing it is more difficult. I'd say put this up on the rules of the server page (since you have to have your own website), and make sure any authorized DMs are told to confirm this has happened before moving forward with a story.

[Aron Times]

Or, you know, the server admin could have turned on the No-PVP flag universally.

Seriously. But yeah - I've just recently picked up NWN, and have been playing single-player so far. So you haven't found somewhere where people metagame in a good way, then?

The roleplaying servers are really bad. Your first few weeks in a roleplaying server will be very fun, but inevitably you'll run into someone playing an evil character who tries to screw your character, all the while apologizing to you that he's not responsible for his character's actions. This has happened to me in each of the servers that I listed above (not all of them are NWN servers, by the way).

The action servers, which "true roleplayers" deride as the realm of munchkins and powergamers, ironically have better players. Since it's basically taken for granted that you're playing a game, not a character when you're on an action server, players tend to take responsibility for their actions.

Well, most of the time. There are cheaters who abuse bugs and such, but otherwise virtually nobody denies responsibility for their character's actions.

[Starbuck_II]

Begin rant.

The first incarnation of Argent Gish (see below) was a mercenary wizard in a Neverwinter Nights roleplaying server. It was one of the best roleplaying communities I had ever encountered, or so I thought.

One day, Argent ran into a party of Banites whom he had previously worked for. He asks them if they might be in need of his services again, and after a huddled discussion, they take him with them. The Banites then go to a secluded temple, presumably to speak to their superiors.

Should have been a sense motive check that something was up with the Banites (or at least the DM clueing you in that somethin felt wrong).

[Jack_Simth]

The roleplaying servers are really bad. Your first few weeks in a roleplaying server will be very fun, but inevitably you'll run into someone playing an evil character who tries to screw your character, all the while apologizing to you that he's not responsible for his character's actions. This has happened to me in each of the servers that I listed above (not all of them are NWN servers, by the way).

So basically, it's a very small percentage of the actual players, but after you've encountered a great many players, the odds stack up?

Oh, and when the player apologizes, you can always point out that they deliberately chose to play that sort of character. There's no particular reason to let them dodge that way.

The action servers, which "true roleplayers" deride as the realm of munchkins and powergamers, ironically have better players. Since it's basically taken for granted that you're playing a game, not a character when you're on an action server, players tend to take responsibility for their actions.

That is amusing, yes.

Well, most of the time. There are cheaters who abuse bugs and such, but otherwise virtually nobody denies responsibility for their character's actions.

Ah, so like the Continual Flame Dagger trade I ran across accidentally, then?

[Coidzor]

What was the name of the fallacy of denying responsibility for one's characters' actions?

[Jack_Simth]

What was the name of the fallacy of denying responsibility for one's characters' actions?

No idea, but it's simple to demonstrate.

[AstralFire]

Well, I feel that if people aren't allowed to play jerks or do jerky things IC, then the verisimilitude is harmed. But roleplaying is cooperative, so you really should discuss with someone and give them the option to back out if you're going to be altering their character in some way.

[Jerthanis]

I had a similar experience in City of Arabel, where I played an honest merchant Wizard of Waukeen. I was following this Monk around, roleplaying, smiting rats in a basement, or whatever lame first and second level quests that game had for you. Then, after a pitched battle against those terrible bats, wherein I interposed my tender wizard flesh between him and some monster, he turned on me and knocked me unconscious and stole all my stuff. He knocked me so far unconscious that I would've had to wait several minutes realtime to wake up. While he was excessively brutalizing me, he said, "(Hey, no hard feelings, this is all In Character)" like it was some kind of universal balm.

Anyway, he wanders off and a random passing hostile bat eventually wanders by and does a Coup De Grace. I decide that is the most stupid friggin' way to get killed ever, so I respawn and go talk to a guard, reasoning that eventually I woke up and crawled out of the basement and wasn't killed by a ornery bat in a fit of pique.

So I start talking to a guard, and tell him that someone beat me unconscious and stole all my money, and that he was named "guy's name" and looked like (I give a description of "guy's name") and the guard chastised me out of character for trying to get this guy in trouble, and said IC, "Well, you should've been more careful, here's 5gp to buy clothes."

Yeah, no one has fun on those servers except the Evil characters.

[AstralFire]

That's pathetic.

[Hashmir]

So I start talking to a guard, and tell him that someone beat me unconscious and stole all my money, and that he was named "guy's name" and looked like (I give a description of "guy's name") and the guard chastised me out of character for trying to get this guy in trouble, and said IC, "Well, you should've been more careful, here's 5gp to buy clothes."

Yeah, no one has fun on those servers except the Evil characters.

Wait, so him beating you up and stealing your stuff is ok because out-of-character motives couldn't possibly have anything to do with it, but you reporting him to the guard is not ok because in-character motives couldn't possibly have anything to do with it?

[Kesnit]

Well, I feel that if people aren't allowed to play jerks or do jerky things IC, then the verisimilitude is harmed. But roleplaying is cooperative, so you really should discuss with someone and give them the option to back out if you're going to be altering their character in some way.

This. You knew the PCs were Evil. You went with them anyway. (Though a Sense Motive would have been good. On the other hand, you did approach them in the first place...)

If there is anyone not taking responsibility for their character's actions, it's the OP.

[AstralFire]

Woahwoahwoah I did not mean to imply anything like "the OP needs to assume responsibility for their actions." I'm arguing against blanket banning evil or jerk characters and behavior IC. While the OP would have been wiser to be on guard against this kind of thing, I place the ball in the Bane-worshippers' court for how they handled it, especially if they were rude (which was sort of the sense I got).

[Dracomorph]

So I start talking to a guard, and tell him that someone beat me unconscious and stole all my money, and that he was named "guy's name" and looked like (I give a description of "guy's name") and the guard chastised me out of character for trying to get this guy in trouble, and said IC, "Well, you should've been more careful, here's 5gp to buy clothes."

This is the only part of that story that really bothers me. Especially because it makes perfect sense IC to ask a guard for help when you've been assaulted and mugged! Honestly, Not Cool.

Just like players should be allowed to be as evil as their characters, so too should consequences for their actions be logical, as opposed to dismissive.

[Gamerlord]

You should have seen this coming, but the local guard should also have received word from your relatives you disappeared, hire some adventures, who just so happen to stumble upon the vampire, if the heroes win, good, if they lose, that is the way the cookie crumbles.

[Jerthanis]

Wait, so him beating you up and stealing your stuff is ok because out-of-character motives couldn't possibly have anything to do with it, but you reporting him to the guard is not ok because in-character motives couldn't possibly have anything to do with it?

Basically, yeah. The guard interpreted the situation as a Roleplay scenario, and that my insistence that he go after this guy and punish him was me being vindictive. PC names float above their heads, so he could easily be spotted anywhere he went, and me just saying, "*I describe "charname"*" was apparently me trying to exploit that OOC mechanic to get him punished.

[SmartAlec]

I was once a DM on a roleplaying server for a while, and this was a server that tried to play law enforcement as tenacious and dedicated and also took the view that everything had a consequence (no matter what you did, you were likely crossing someone to do it). Unfortunately, that approach both turned away a lot of players and worse, burned out quite a few DMs, including me. Maybe we could have lived without the players, but not the DMs.

[Aron Times]

Yeah, no one has fun on those servers except the Evil characters.

And the DMs' friends. Pulling that sort of crap with the DMs' friends gets you in trouble, IC excuse or not. If it happens to someone outside of their in-group, like me, you get told that "you should've been more careful blah blah blah" and so on.

[Xallace]

Yeah. Roleplaying servers're the pits, man. I stopped playing online after I got chased through Castle Neverwinter by a 30th-level Wizard for 20 minutes. Died 15 times. Reason was because her character was evil and thought it was funny.

I got the last laugh, though. She lived on wearing a gaudy purple-and-green robe with a winged, copper helm, while I died in my stylish black Golem Armor with matching Helm of Brilliance (yes, the Helm of Brilliance was black). The gods look favorably upon the stylish.

[Paulus]

I find this all terribly interesting, but have no idea what you are talking about. Servers? guards chastising you out of character? Game? Is this PnP or PC? and if it's PC how is this possible? Can you those of us who don't get what your talking about a quick summary of everything you are talking bout - if it's not to much trouble- please?

Also, I don't care what anyone says at all anywhere at anytime. Character death is far to important to excuse or argue off for stupidity. The player should always have a choice, ALWAYS, robbing them of what their character gets to do before or after death is completely and utterly wrong. Worse then railroading, and even worse then a TPK. But that's my opinion.

[Gnorman]

Man Escape from the Underdark was a messed up server sometimes. I feel your pain.

After losing paladins, rogues, and yes, even a cleric of Bane to the machinations and predations of evil characters, I decided to play a comic relief gnome rogue/illusionist for the entire rest of the time - it was so much easier. And though sometimes characters hated you, as long as you stayed out of the way, made yourself look unimportant, you could survive. You ingratiated yourself towards characters with a sense of humor by participating in witty repartee and the occasional prank. You subtly mocked authority figures in a way that made the chaotic characters like you, but not enough for the guards to haul you off to jail or beat you senseless. You brewed potions and crafted wands like mad in an effort to establish yourself as a trusted, reliable resource for magical items, because who wants to kill a vendor? But you were also quick to turn any liquid assets back into scrolls for your spellbook and more magic items, so that you never had too much pocket money on you at any one time, so that you were never a fat little bullseye for money-grubbing thieves.

And then, when everyone thought you were harmless, an addled little alchemist with no cruel ambitions or holy crusades to speak of, you got your revenge. You isolated your (thankfully very few) enemies one by one (the ones who consistently got their rocks off by torturing, harassing, and murdering other characters were a special favorite of mine), made sure that their friends and relatives assumed they were off adventuring in the depths of the Underdark, killed them with a phenomenally high DC Phantasmal Killer spell, and then fed their bodies to the rats. When the authorities asked questions, you professed ignorance and continued to quietly brew potions, craft wands, and talk about deliberately misleading nonsense. No more cruel, domineering taskmasters to worry about. No more crude, murderous, absolutely despicable dwarves (to date the best roleplaying of 6 CHA I've ever seen - my only regret is that I didn't kill him personally, as he was killed by the guards after sinking an axe into the back of the evil, seductive enchantress I was also attempting to eliminate). No more cabals of Bane looking to enslave your friends. No more stuffy wizard who tried to corner you in an ally in Lower and have you killed for mocking him in front of the mayor.

It was, oddly enough, a very good education in a gnome's life.

[Kallisti]

I've never been to a roleplaying server, but I've go to say: You can play an evil character. You can play a jerk. But you're the one who chose to play that kind of character. If your roleplaying is ruining others' fun, then roleplay differently. It's a game. It's a group game. If you want to have your character be a **** to everyone indescriminately and not be blamed for it, Steve Jackson games makes this wonderful card game called Munchkin. I recommend it highly for that type of play.

EDIT:

It was, oddly enough, a very good education in a gnome's life.

That is truly awesome.

[thubby]

as I see it, people are largely responsible for their character's actions because they are the ones who made the characters the way they are.
that is, if you make a character you know is willing to betray his friends, you're responsible for the fact that he did.

[KBF]

I find this all terribly interesting, but have no idea what you are talking about.

...was a mercenary wizard in a Neverwinter Nights roleplaying server.

Question answered. Also, you probably do OOC with just a means of saying that your normal chat is OOC, like parenthesis.