A few 3.5e questions

[Xan_Kriegor]

Over time I've been accumulating small questions to ask you guys, but I never really got around to it 'cause they were small questions. Recently I found something a bit puzzling though, so I have to post all my questions now:

The Big Question:

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I've been making a Half-Dragon (Copper) Orc as a backup character for when my current one dies, but I've been having troubles with the skill selection. According to the SRD:

Skills
A half-dragon gains skill points as a dragon and has skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier) × (HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the half-dragon gains dragon skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills, and other skills as cross-class.

First of all, does that mean that as a technically level 1 character (First is going to be Orc Paragon to get rid of Light Sensitivity) I get skills as a level 4 character? And second, I can't find anything that states an 'Orc Skill-list,' so I don't know where I can put my theoretical 3 extra levels of skillpoints. Thirdly, does the language in the Half-Dragon template override skillpoints from my class advancements? i.e. taking levels in Barbarian after Orc Paragon, I still get 6+int SPs instead of 2+int SPs?

On Ghoul Touch:

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Ghoul Touch, courtesy of the SRD:

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Ghoul Touch
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living humanoid touched
Duration: 1d6+2 rounds
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

Imbuing you with negative energy, this spell allows you to paralyze a single living humanoid for the duration of the spell with a successful melee touch attack.

Additionally, the paralyzed subject exudes a carrion stench that causes all living creatures (except you) in a 10-foot-radius spread to become sickened (Fortitude negates). A neutralize poison spell removes the effect from a sickened creature, and creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the stench.
Material Component

A small scrap of cloth taken from clothing worn by a ghoul, or a pinch of earth from a ghoul’s lair.

My DM and I have minor disagreements on the reading of this spell, but we both usually go for the RAW if it makes good sense. My interpretation is this: If the caster succeeds on his touch attack, the target is automatically paralyzed and it creates the carrion cloud, making characters in the area roll a Fortitude save. My DM's interpretation is this: If the caster succeeds on his touch attack, the target makes a Fortitude save. If he makes it, the spell has absolutely no effect. If he fails, he is paralyzed as normal and the carrion cloud is created, as normal. I arrived at my interpretation because the Saving Throw: line only lists one Fortitude negates, not two. Which interpretation do you Playgrounders think is more correct?

On fluff (or scales, to be more precise):

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Given the aforementioned Half-Dragon (Copper) Orc in the first question, what do y'all think the resulting skin/scale color is? Just curious.

EDIT: Probably not RAI, but may be RoC:

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Speed
A half-dragon that is Large or larger has wings and can fly at twice its base land speed (maximum 120 ft.) with average maneuverability. A half-dragon that is Medium or smaller does not have wings.

More than likely not RAI, but if we once again go back to our example of the Half-Dragon Orc, he is Medium. If someone were to cast Enlarge Person on him (except not, because Half-Dragon changes his type from Humanoid to Dragon, but some other size-increasing spell), would he suddenly sprout wings and be able to fly?

[ShadowFighter15]

The Big Question:

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I've been making a Half-Dragon (Copper) Orc as a backup character for when my current one dies, but I've been having troubles with the skill selection. According to the SRD:
First of all, does that mean that as a technically level 1 character (First is going to be Orc Paragon to get rid of Light Sensitivity) I get skills as a level 4 character? And second, I can't find anything that states an 'Orc Skill-list,' so I don't know where I can put my theoretical 3 extra levels of skillpoints. Thirdly, does the language in the Half-Dragon template override skillpoints from my class advancements? i.e. taking levels in Barbarian after Orc Paragon, I still get 6+int SPs instead of 2+int SPs?

That only works when you use Racial Hit Dice (and a half-dragon orc has none; only Hit Dice from class levels), so just treat skills the same way as you would a normal character; so the barbarian levels would give you 4+INT skill points (the base amount for that class) and your max ranks in a class skill is character level+3.

On Ghoul Touch:

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Ghoul Touch, courtesy of the SRD:

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Ghoul Touch
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living humanoid touched
Duration: 1d6+2 rounds
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

Imbuing you with negative energy, this spell allows you to paralyze a single living humanoid for the duration of the spell with a successful melee touch attack.

Additionally, the paralyzed subject exudes a carrion stench that causes all living creatures (except you) in a 10-foot-radius spread to become sickened (Fortitude negates). A neutralize poison spell removes the effect from a sickened creature, and creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the stench.
Material Component

A small scrap of cloth taken from clothing worn by a ghoul, or a pinch of earth from a ghoul’s lair.

My DM and I have minor disagreements on the reading of this spell, but we both usually go for the RAW if it makes good sense. My interpretation is this: If the caster succeeds on his touch attack, the target is automatically paralyzed and it creates the carrion cloud, making characters in the area roll a Fortitude save. My DM's interpretation is this: If the caster succeeds on his touch attack, the target makes a Fortitude save. If he makes it, the spell has absolutely no effect. If he fails, he is paralyzed as normal and the carrion cloud is created, as normal. I arrived at my interpretation because the Saving Throw: line only lists one Fortitude negates, not two. Which interpretation do you Playgrounders think is more correct?

I'd personally go with your interpretation of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if a few DMs read it the same way as yours does.

On fluff (or scales, to be more precise):

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Given the aforementioned Half-Dragon (Copper) Orc in the first question, what do y'all think the resulting skin/scale color is? Just curious.

All the artwork I've seen of half-dragons (at least; what colour artwork I've seen) have had their dragon parent's scales in-place of their normal skin (so a half-blue dragon hobgoblin has his body covered in blue scales, instead of regular hobgoblin skin).

EDIT: Probably not RAI, but may be RoC:

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More than likely not RAI, but if we once again go back to our example of the Half-Dragon Orc, he is Medium. If someone were to cast Enlarge Person on him (except not, because Half-Dragon changes his type from Humanoid to Dragon, but some other size-increasing spell), would he suddenly sprout wings and be able to fly?

No; they wouldn't grow wings just from changing size. That part of the template only counts for the base creature's normal size. If you're only Large because of a spell, then it's not your normal size.

[Douglas]

For Ghoul Touch:
The line in the spell header that says "Saving Throw: Fortitude negates" means that a fort saving throw negates the entire spell. Period. No further elaboration in the spell description is required, that's just what that line means. The fortitude save mentioned in the spell's text is for a secondary effect and is in addition to the primary save.

If you miss with the touch attack, you are holding the charge and can try again next round. If the target succeeds on the save, the spell has no effect and is entirely negated. If you hit and the target fails the save, the target is paralyzed and gets the sickening stench, which has its own fort save for those exposed to it.

Also, did you really think WotC would be so insane as to make a level 2 spell that paralyzed without a save? They may have a poor sense of game balance at times, but not that poor.

[Xan_Kriegor]

That only works when you use Racial Hit Dice (and a half-dragon orc has none; only Hit Dice from class levels), so just treat skills the same way as you would a normal character; so the barbarian levels would give you 4+INT skill points (the base amount for that class) and your max ranks in a class skill is character level+3.

The Half-Dragon template says it gives (6 + int modifier) x (HD + 3) skill points. You say that a Half-Dragon Orc has no racial hit die (which I agree with), that would mean he has (6+int)x(0+3) skill points, or 18 + 3int skill points. At least, that's how I understand math.

No; they wouldn't grow wings just from changing size. That part of the template only counts for the base creature's normal size. If you're only Large because of a spell, then it's not your normal size.

Not to be argumentative, but the template never specifies the creature's base size versus the creature's current size. However, I agree that enlarge=wings isn't a very good interpretation.

All the artwork I've seen of half-dragons (at least; what colour artwork I've seen) have had their dragon parent's scales in-place of their normal skin (so a half-blue dragon hobgoblin has his body covered in blue scales, instead of regular hobgoblin skin).

Thanks, now I have a copper-colored Orc.

[Douglas]

The Half-Dragon template says it gives (6 + int modifier) x (HD + 3) skill points. You say that a Half-Dragon Orc has no racial hit die (which I agree with), that would mean he has (6+int)x(0+3) skill points, or 18 + 3int skill points. At least, that's how I understand math.

That line in the template description is mostly just a restatement of the general rule for skill points, with the only information of interest being that the base skill points per level is 6 for its racial hit dice. The +3 at the end is just a way of expressing the standard quadruple-skill-points-at-level-1 thing, with the assumption that the creature's first hit die is a racial one. If you don't have racial hit dice at all, ignore that line completely. Your skill points are determined exclusively by your class levels in that case.

[Starbuck_II]

Also, did you really think WotC would be so insane as to make a level 2 spell that paralyzed without a save? They may have a poor sense of game balance at times, but not that poor.

I read still as that. I know WotC is insane, but it isn't best due to the stink affecting allies.

[Xan_Kriegor]

For Ghoul Touch:
The line in the spell header that says "Saving Throw: Fortitude negates" means that a fort saving throw negates the entire spell. Period. No further elaboration in the spell description is required, that's just what that line means. The fortitude save mentioned in the spell's text is for a secondary effect and is in addition to the primary save.

However, the "Saving Throw" line only has one 'Fortitude Negates,' not 'Fortitude negates, then Fortitude negates, see text.' That is also why I interpret it as I do: the block-description only calls for one save, and the full text description only calls for one save. Having the spell work as you say would require there to be two 'Fortitude Negates' lines, not one.

And besides, WotC made Sleep a level one spell. It can affect up to four creatures, doesn't require a melee touch attack (meaning you can be in a very safe position while casting it, while Ghoul Touch requires you to be just as close to the enemy as the fighter), it works on Non-Humanoids, and it lasts for 1 min/level instead of 1d6+2 rounds. While paralysis and being knocked unconscious are different, at level 3 they are mostly the same.

[Douglas]

Unless the block description states "see text" any save it calls for is always for the entire effect on the creature making the save. Saves for secondary effects may or may not be referenced in the block description, WotC is a bit inconsistent about that.

Saving Throw

Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The Saving Throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.

Negates
The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.

The factors you mentioned about Sleep are correct, but a victim of it can be cured by a single standard action from any nearby ally and it allows a save.

[KillianHawkeye]

1) Let me highlight the critical parts.

A half-dragon gains skill points as a dragon and has skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier) × (HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the half-dragon gains dragon skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels.

So, you get the listed skill points x (HD + 3) only IF you have racial Hit Dice. Otherwise, you get normal skill points for your class levels.


2)

Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The Saving Throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.

Negates
The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.

So douglas is right. The "Saving Throw: Fortitude negates" line is specific to "Target: Living humanoid touched." Otherwise, by your logic, the spell would need to state "Area: 10-ft. radius" in addition to the target line. Sorry, no automatic paralyzation for you!

EDIT: Half-ninja'd! Or ninja'd by a halfling???

[sofawall]

They may have a poor sense of game balance at times, but not that poor.

Have you seen the Candle of Invocation?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Also, did you really think WotC would be so insane as to make a level 2 spell that paralyzed without a save? They may have a poor sense of game balance at times, but not that poor.

Such power is only reserved for level 3 spells!

[Xan_Kriegor]

Unless the block description states "see text" any save it calls for is always for the entire effect on the creature making the save. Saves for secondary effects may or may not be referenced in the block description, WotC is a bit inconsistent about that.

Noo! The win that Wizards are made of is falling down around me! This can't be!

To try one last time, the quoted part is where we disagree. I don't see anywhere in the rules, explicitly stated, that if a spell says Fortitude Negates that it always will negate every part of the spell for that creature. I interpret parts of spells as only being negated if they specifically mention they are negated. You interpret (or how I interpret your interpreting ) that if a spell says Fortitude Negates, and the target makes his/her save, that (s)he cannot be affected by the spell in any way.

One last look, this time for the relevant text:

Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
(...)
Imbuing you with negative energy, this spell allows you to paralyze a single living humanoid for the duration of the spell with a successful melee touch attack. Additionally, the paralyzed subject exudes a carrion stench that causes all living creatures (except you) in a 10-foot-radius spread to become sickened (Fortitude negates).

Bolding emphasis mine. Because the saving throw line only mentions one saving throw, and it is clearly stated in the text where that saving throw is applied, that is where the one saving throw goes. If the saving throw line were to say 'Fortitude Negates, then Fortitude Negates,' I could probably see where you're coming from.

[Fax Celestis]

'Fortitude Negates, then Fortitude Negates'

No spell reads this way. None.

Spells that allow multiple kinds of saving throw, like phantasmal killer's "Will negates, then Fortitude partial; see text", only reads that way as there are two kinds of saving throw.

[Xan_Kriegor]

No spell reads this way. None.

While it's true that no spell reads that way, that's also partially true because there aren't any spells that having two saving throws of the same type. Just because there aren't any spells that read like that doesn't mean that Ghoul Touch can have <large number> different Fortitude saves in different places. The Saving Throw line states 'Fortitude Negates,' implying there should only be one saving throw that this spell requires.

[SparkMandriller]

You seriously think Ghoul Touch should be better than Irresistible Dance?

[KillianHawkeye]

Why are you even asking us if you're just gonna argue your interpretation no matter what?

You got your answer already. Now you have to choose whether to continue believing what you believe, or to accept what everyone's telling you. Continuing to argue about it is pointless.

[Serpentine]

Sometimes just talking it out can help it to make sense to you.

Sorry though, m'dear, the "Fortitude negates" applies to the central effect of the spell: the paralysis. The cloud is an extra bonus, with its own separate rules (thus the "additionally", and the explicit inclusion of "fort negates" at that point in the text).