As DM, I suck at combat... help?

[rubycona]

Hey, all. As a DM (which I'm taking a temporary break from till I figure out how to improve), I've got my strengths and weaknesses. My strengths are great... mostly roleplay related. My weaknesses? All things tactics and combat related.

Example: I had my guys going against an Avolakia. It's a monster I think in Monster Manual 2, and he was 2 CRs higher than my party, so I thought he'd make a good boss. I scared the living crap out of my players with him. They, as players, were freaking out, and the wizard almost abandoned the party to go hide (which would not have been good). At one point, the Avolakia, shapeshifted into human form, calmly went to the party and demanded that his treasure (which they took from a guarded treasure chest in a cave) be returned. And, the dialogue went so well, I terrified the player on watch so much, that the cleric, who was on watch at the time, in a panic, attacked the wizard to keep her from waking up, and took the pearl of power to give back to the Avolakia. As a DM, I thought I did a freaking fantastic job on that. But when the battle came? They wiped the floor with him.

For some people, combat and tactics are obvious. They look over stats and numbers, and go "Oh, duh, that is Obviously better than That." Or whatever. Whereas, I see roleplay things as obvious. Whether it's terrifying my players, or getting them hooked in a story, or making them feel important, powerful, whatever, THAT I can do.

But as soon as I say, "Roll initiative," the game starts to suck. Combat's an important part of D&D... and I want to be a good DM. I really don't know what will help... practice battles with people, or reading up on "common tactics that are obvious to people who aren't tactically retarded" (something I'd read if I could find XD)

So that's why I'm here... I'm hoping you guys will have some idea to help me learn at least basic combat stuff. I don't mean things like D&D rules... I've got those down pat, even grapple :P, but things like positioning enemies effectively, what abilities are wise to use when, how to balance an enemy group to actually be a threat to my players, that sort of thing.

I want to make combat Fun, and I have absolutely no idea how. I understand in overall terms, make the players feel like the only reason they won is because they're awesome, but if they'd been even just a little less awesome, they'd be dead. I just don't know how to accomplish that.

Thanks for your help :) I really appreciate it.

[erikun]

What happened in combat that "sucked" where they "wiped the floor with him"? Some details would be useful.

Which edition is this? I'm assuming D&D. For 3rd edition, a single creature +4 CR is usually a match for the party - and not always, as it's still 4-on-1 and said creature can be tossing around spells without risking AoOs. If it's 4th edition, then a party of roughly four +2 level creature makes a almost-kill for the party.

Second, what kind of creature it is matters a lot. Spellcasters, as already stated, are going to get swamped just by the numbers. A spellcaster would want to cast their buffs before jumping into melee, at least. Otherwise, take a look at what the creature can do and what it can't. A medusa with a bow is a great ranged fighter - but the dagger and leather armor she's carrying indicate that she shouldn't get up close. Don't have her walk up to the party to take something - have her tell the party to place it on the table and step away.

And yes, D&D combat is tricky. Primarily because different groups can vary so much that a static level or CR doesn't really tell what is level-appropriate or not.

[BRC]

A Smart enemy is a Tough enemy. If your enemies are just standing there hitting players at random you're doing something wrong. Foes can skulk in the shadows, hide behind cover,

Alright, you said your skill is Roleplaying, Use That. Make the enemies fight how you imagine they would.

Also, make them react to changes in the Battle. Lets say you've got abunch of Archers, one of the players tosses a Fireball that drops half of them. The other half will identify that person as a greater threat and respond accordingly, by focusing their fire.

Identify the Strengths of the monsters you are controlling and use those. If the situation calls for it, remember that they may have set the area up to play to that exact strength. Also, know their weaknesses, and remember they will take precautions to minimize those weaknesses.

Here, Lesson time.

If your story called for a group of Elven fighters (Lonbows and Longswords) to attack your standard Fighter/Cleric/Rogue/Wizard party in a forest, what would you have them do?

[Gorbash]

Well, the most obvious problem is that boss only has one action per round, whereas party has 3+ and usually boss' CR doesn't account for that. Usual deal is throw some lower lvl minions in the fray to pester the PCs. Give flanking opportunities, serve as meat shield, force them to split fire, etc...

[jokey665]

I'm the exact opposite, combat is easily my strong suit. I'm not sure if there's really all that much advice for me to give though. Most of the stuff I don't really have to think about all that much; balancing encounters and running monsters just sort of comes naturally to me.

On the flip side though, I'm mediocre at best with the roleplay elements, though with my current group they're mostly combat based anyway so it sort of works out. I do wish they were more roleplay focused though, if only to force me to get better at it.

I wish I could help more than I am, but me trying to tell you how to run more exciting encounters would probably be like you trying to explain to me how to be better at roleplaying; it might help a tiny bit, but experience is really what matters here, I think.

[Starbuck_II]

Hey, all. As a DM (which I'm taking a temporary break from till I figure out how to improve), I've got my strengths and weaknesses. My strengths are great... mostly roleplay related. My weaknesses? All things tactics and combat related.

But as soon as I say, "Roll initiative," the game starts to suck. Combat's an important part of D&D... and I want to be a good DM. I really don't know what will help... practice battles with people, or reading up on "common tactics that are obvious to people who aren't tactically retarded" (something I'd read if I could find XD)

I want to make combat Fun, and I have absolutely no idea how. I understand in overall terms, make the players feel like the only reason they won is because they're awesome, but if they'd been even just a little less awesome, they'd be dead. I just don't know how to accomplish that.

Thanks for your help :) I really appreciate it.

Can you maybe describe what your monster did when it was alive, what oparty did, etc.
Describe how battle went down (what you rolled only matters if hit/miss/success/failure). Were there better choices you might have made?

It also can be the issue of 1 dude versus 4.

Is the monster good physically: AC, miss chances, resistances?
Does it have spells to make that good? (Blur, displacement, mirror Image).

This site says: (http://www.valdier.com/roleplaying/D...Characters.pdf)
quicken spell-like as a feat.
So did you cast 2 spells/rd?
If this site is right:
Spell-Like Abilities:
At will—Only good ones chill touch, cause fear, ghoul touch, and polymorph self (humanoid form only),
3/day—They have both undead Core creating spells.
Also have enervation, vampiric touch. Caster level 14th; with save DC 18+

They sound better with a team of undead.
Enervation quicken + standard enervation would be useful, but that only removes one guy.

They have Regeneration (4): resist fire 10, Immune Cold.
It has bad AC (18?). It does have SR, but the AC is the main issue.

It is basically a Brute with spells. It has no buffs, but it does have ability to create undead so it should have minions.

[Chrono22]

As said above.. action economy is important. Using multiple enemies helps to solve this.. but using too many bogs down play. A good (and less complicated) solution would be to add instances where player characters can become slowed, stunned, entangled, or otherwise impeded during combat. The less they can do, the more tactically important their choices become. Nothing really makes you feel the heat like being toe to toe with a red dragon and not being able to full attack.

Also, the enemies' strategic synergy is important. A few goblins by themselves are an appetizer... a single ogre is an entry. Mount a few spear/lance-wielding goblins on the back of an armored ogre, and you have a full course beat-down.

Sometimes the terrain also matters... not using monsters' natural advantages in combat can turn what would be challenging encounters into cakewalks.

[RandomNPC]

you sound like one of my DMs (i play 3 games right now)

He had a dragon attack us, it flew in, landed 40 feet away, hit us with breath, and we all charged, surrounded him for flanking on turn 2 and it turned into i hit you, you hit me.

Dragons can do flybys all day. they have spells. and there is a tripple treasure they can rely on to have items to help heal and fight. dragons are greedy but if they die they can't have any of the hoard.

anyway, you sound like my DM. Like I said before. Here's a basic rundown, everyone feel free to add on to it.
1: does the creature have special movement? (fly, dig?)
2: this creature, does it have any ranged attacks? (look up the harpoon spider, it can shoot 30 feet and rope people in with its organic harpoons)
3: any spell like or otherwise useful abilities?
4: what is the creatures to hit bonus? does it need to get around the fighter to get to softer targets? remember full plate offers twice the protection of mage armor.

[valadil]

It's hard to be challenging when you're outnumbered. Play the same number on each side until you get used to that.

Also keep in mind that your fights don't have to be hard to be fun. I'm pretty good at tactical combat, but it's less interesting to me than roleplaying. Sometimes I'll appear bored or rush through a combat just because I want to get back to the RP. So even though I'm good at combat, the encounter isn't fun.

Here are some basic suggestions:

In general you want to target weak defenses. Yeah, it would be awesome if hold person hits the PC wizard. But wizards have high will saves, so it's not likely to work. Fort or reflex is a better bet. Figure out a weakness for each of your PCs, and make sure that there's an enemy who can target that.

In D&D, focused fire always wins over distributing damage. A PC with 1 hp left hits just as hard as if he was unwounded. Having your guys all attack the same PC is a great way to kill that one PC.

Try to flank your enemies without getting yourself flanked. It's especially important to avoid flanks from rogues (although you should let the rogue get the flank occasionally so he gets to use sneak attack).

Full attacks are good, especially at higher levels. Usually it's better to 5' shift to get a full attack than to move elsewhere and only get one attack action. There are exceptions though. Learning when to make the exceptions is a big part of learning combat.

The nice thing about running characters in combat is that it's the same thing if you're a player or GM. If you want to practice combat, play a combat character in somebody else's game. What you learn will transfer to your GMing (though you'll still have to learn how to build encounters).

[truemane]

Hmm. Tricky issue. I've been playing D&D since 1st Ed and so eyeballing encounters is a skill gained through long and painful experience. Some ideas:

1. Keep things simple. You don't have to use a monster for combat. You, as a player and as a DM, know what the PC classes can do at a given level, right? So put them up against other non-monstrous races with class levels. You have four PC's at fourth level? Toss them a small group of bad guys, all fourth level or so, balanced as you like. You don't need to go all Linear Guild on them, but stick to what you know.

2. Tactics don't have to be the be-all-end all. Some people thrive on combat tactics and know how things have to be for every shift and movement of every square. But I'm not one of them and have never been. The simple stuff: get behind cover, use ranged attacks, meat-shields out front and casters in the back, has worked for me for decades.

3. Math. What AC does the PC hit when he rolls a 10? What AC does the Bad Guy hit if he rolled a 10? And therefore, what to-hit bonus hits the PC if they roll a 10? Same with saves, caster check, skill checks, and everything else. If your PC has an AC of 21, then a creature with +11 to hit will hit him half the time and miss him half the time. If the PC has +8 to strike, then he will hit AC 18 half the time and miss it half the time. You can average out damage and see how many 'hits' the PC's can take, given the average damage output of the enemy, and vice versa. And that, in turn, will give you an idea of how much of an impact a buff or a debuff will have. If the PC has 18 AC, and the enemy has +8 to hit, a +2 or a -2 to either side in either direction is a significant change. You don't have to work this out for every creature every combat, but if you keep this in mind I think you'll find that balancing things, mechanically at least, is much easier. I figured this out myself about five years after I started DM'ing and once I did I suddenly found it MUCH easier to construct a reasonable combat.

4. The dice don't have to tell the whole story. Some people are dice-purists and I respect that. But my combats tell stories as much as my political intrigue does and if my prep has lead to a bad story then I'm as entitled to make things interesting by adding HP on the fly to the Big Bad just as much as I am adding an insane hatred of Elves to the King's Advisor on the fly if it improves that drama and the tension and story. Like anywhere else in a rules-based game, you have to careful with this, as too much interferes with the social contract of a game with a ruleset (ie. sharing a consistent and predictable game world) but don't let the dice and the numbers stress you out. They're there to help.

5. Carnegie Hall. My biggest piece of advice would be to practice and just get some experience, as someone before me said. Tell your players you're stepping outside your comfort zone and just have some fun with it. Maybe even arrange some off-side sessions where you just make up encounters and run them and see where it goes with no continuity. I used to run them all the time, like arena games, basically, for a session or two, and they helped a lot.

I can't think of anything else at the moment. If I do I shall add it. I salute your dedication to your craft and I respect your desire to be better. You'll get there. It just takes time. Especially if it doesn't come easily.

[sofawall]

Which edition is this? I'm assuming D&D. For 3rd edition, a single creature +4 CR is usually a match for the party - and not always, as it's still 4-on-1 and said creature can be tossing around spells without risking AoOs.

Holy crap, no. +4 CR might be a match for the party? Anything +4 CR, played properly, will mop the floor with a non-optimized 4-person party. I mean, if you're fighting a DMM Cleric, Incantatrix, Psionic Artificer and Planar Shepherd, you may have a point. Against a TWF Fighter, Crossbow Rogue, Healbot Cleric and Blaster Wizard, you will destroy the party, in all likelihood.

[Starbuck_II]

Holy crap, no. +4 CR might be a match for the party? Anything +4 CR, played properly, will mop the floor with a non-optimized 4-person party. I mean, if you're fighting a DMM Cleric, Incantatrix, Psionic Artificer and Planar Shepherd, you may have a point. Against a TWF Fighter, Crossbow Rogue, Healbot Cleric and Blaster Wizard, you will destroy the party, in all likelihood.

Except in this case, a solo Avolakia will lose to a party. All it has going for it is Regeneration. It has terrible AC for its CR. Its abilities assume it has allies. It can hit them easily, but it can't win without being badly beat up.

Basically, a troll with Fire resist 10 and poison claws. So you might not have the ability to get past Regen, but it can't do anything but not die.
It is the monk of monsters.

[erikun]

Anything +4 CR, played properly, will mop the floor with a non-optimized 4-person party.

So you're saying that an optimized, +4 CR can mop the floor with an unoptimized, unprepared 4 person party? An optimized, -4 CR can mop the floor with an unoptimized, unprepared 4 person party. Tucker's Kobolds comes to mind. Optimization and preparations can make a MAJOR difference in the difficulty (or lack thereof) in an encounter.

Rather, I'm saying that a CR of equal level is supposed to use about 20% of a party's resources. +2 CR is supposed to use about 40% (or around half) while +4 CR is supposed to use around 80% (or taking the full party's effort). Of course, the party can just gang up on the single creature and hit it with stacking effects to take it down with far less resources... or the creature could fight with flyby attack using breath weapons and gaze attacks while spellcasting. That's kind of why +4 CR is tricky to use: it's far easier to go from overwhelming defeat to complete victory based entirely on tactics.

[sofawall]

Except in this case, a solo Avolakia will lose to a party. All it has going for it is Regeneration. It has terrible AC for its CR. Its abilities assume it has allies. It can hit them easily, but it can't win without being badly beat up.

Basically, a troll with Fire resist 10 and poison claws. So you might not have the ability to get past Regen, but it can't do anything but not die.
It is the monk of monsters.

First of all, it was apparently +2 CR, not +4 and thank you fro bringing up the troll.

Assuming a CR-4 party fights it, as was suggested above, it does enough damage to 1-round any member of the party, an AC that the fighter will hit about half the time, too many HD for Sleep, a grapple mod that no one can even hope to match, 10 ft. reach and regeneration.

Of course, since you have 4 people, you should be able to destroy it without too much trouble, right?

EDIT: A dragon played properly does not land in the middle of the group. It has an Int score, use it. An animal might simply charge, but anything with, oh, 8 or higher int will, if having a higher speed and a ranged weapon, kite the enemy. Or hide and snipe. Or ambush to hit the wizard. Something taken straight from the monster manual.

However, if you make every monster simply charge in and start swinging, even if it is a gish, or a spellcaster, or a party-member, or an ambusher, or a ranged fighter, well, you will almost always lose.

EDIT2: I'd also like to say, tactics =/= optimization. The Dragon has a higher Int than you. Why would it land in the middle of the party when it can easily stand off and breath-strafe, taking little, if any, damage?

[AslanCross]

I think I'm okay at both roleplaying and combat, and I think running Red Hand of Doom has helped me get a lot better a both. I do make sure to run at least one combat encounter every session, though. Anyway, here are a few guidelines I can think of.

1. CR/EL is a guideline. The Monster Manual itself states this. Just because the number says it is 2 over a party doesn't mean it will kick their ass. I learned this the hard way. Pardon to the rest who've heard this story before, but it begs repetition. I had a 5-person party with 6th-level characters (one of whom was a Lv 5 Aasimar paladin).

I prepared as a boss encounter an 11th level warblade, who was supposed to be far and away superior to everyone in combat. The DMG states that an encounter 5 levels above the party level is "Deadly." And yet within 3 rounds, the warblade was down to 5/90 HP and running for her life (thankfully I'd prepared for that eventuality and had equipped her with items that would aid her escape).

And did the party struggle to fight her with tooth and nail? Nope. The paladin alone, whose BAB was HALF the warblade's, chopped off 2/3 of her HP. The wizard's 20-odd damage scorching ray did the rest. The Rogue did nothing (the warblade's uncanny dodge made her sneak attacks useless) and the Scout/Ranger's BAB was too compromised to allow her to land attacks. The cleric was so slow she didn't even get to the battle in time.

However, if it had been a CR 11 dragon (say, an Adult Black), things would've been very different. This leads me to my second piece of advice.

2. Action Economy. Keep in mind that every turn, the party gets off multiple actions. Since they tend to cover different roles (to use a 4E term) in combat, parties are usually able to overcome their individual weaknesses together.

Against a single monster, the party will get more actions off every turn. There are certain monsters that can deal with this combat scenario without much issue---dragons are one example. They have multiple attacks, great reach, high mobility, lots of HP, and otherwise numerous attack options. In short, such a monster is difficult to put into a situation where it cannot attack multiple party members effectively and is not overwhelmed by the sheer amount of attacks the PCs get off every turn.

Other good examples are the behir, some higher level outsiders, and spellcasters.

However, many other monsters do not do well in such a situation. A single orc barbarian might do massive damage to a single character every turn, but the party will eventually deal more damage to it (or have more chances to disable it) simply because there are more of them.

This especially gets noticeable with a large party.

3. Tactical Advantage. Action economy is not the only thing to keep in mind.
Creatures with a Swim speed will do much better in an aquatic battle. Creatures with flight will have a great mobility advantage in the open air (which is why I always thought "slay the dragon in the cave" was a ridiculous encounter).

Creatures generally benefit from having higher ground. Ranged attackers can attack from above with no problems; melee combatants with reach still get a bonus to attack rolls when attacking from above the target.

Some especially vulnerable creatures can be made difficult to access by difficult terrain; this limits the party to ranged attacks.

Some creatures---one good example is the Avolakia you used---are better as boss creatures in a literal sense. They can and should create underlings (Create Undead as a spell-like ability). If he had even just a swarm of zombies, he would've been able to hold them off long enough to use his other (Sp)s.

Let me streamline all of this using Sun Tzu's five factors in The Art of War:
1. The Moral Law: The willingness of a soldier to fight for his leader and the support the minions give their superior. In D&D terms, what is the creature fighting for? While this is mostly a fluff guideline in roleplaying, you say you have a better grasp of this, so I think it's a good place to start.

Why are the creatures willing to fight the PCs? Are they fighting simply to defend their territory, or are they fighting for survival? Were they ordered to by a superior they fear, or someone whom they feel ambivalently about? What are their orders?

2. Heaven: Times, seasons, day or night, cold or heat. I tend to think of these as elements typically outside the players' control and more under the DM's control. While the players can sometimes choose when to act, it is typical for them to simply be thrust into this scenario by the DM, railroaded or not.
In D&D terms, this would relate to illumination, weather conditions.

What time of the day is it? Can the monsters or players use it to their advantage? What would the monster be doing at this time?

3. Earth: terrain, mobility issues, safety and danger, chances of life and death. Factors more directly under the control of the players. It is more likely that the players can choose where to fight the monsters rather than when to fight them, but so can the monsters.

Are the monsters better suited to this terrain? (for example, monsters with climb speed up a sheer rock face, or a beholder hovering over a pool of magma) Will the PCs have to put themselves into dangerous situations just to attack an already dangerous monster? (For example, the Avolakia could be taking advantage of its immunity to cold by sitting in a magical freezing chamber.) Is the monster forcing the player to consider more variables above and beyond the roll of the dice?

4. The Commander: Who is leading the monsters, if any? Similar to the Moral Law, but more localized. Is there a commander present, and how does he treat his underlings? Are his underlings simply zombies he uses as a meat shield, or does he value them and will he order them to retreat? Is there a commander at all, and if none, do the monsters have any tactics at all? Are they simply harrying the PCs, or are they bent on killing them?

5. Method and Discipline: While Sun Tzu used this to refer to logistics and training, in D&D you could use this to refer to the skills, feats, attacks that the monsters have. Are the creatures using fast mounts? If the battle is a chase scene across the rooftops in the town, are they better at jumping over the gaps than the PCs are? Do the monsters have a familiar set of tactics for this particular terrain?

I know these overlap and I might not have understood Sun Tzu as well as a scholar would have, but I'm pretty sure asking these questions will help you put together more challenging and ultimately more interesting combat encounters. :) Happy dice-chucking.

PS: If you have the time and energy, playtesting encounters helps. If you know how your players generally act, you can playtest encounters with how you think they will respond to your scenarios. I've done this to great effect in Red Hand of Doom.

[erikun]

EDIT2: I'd also like to say, tactics =/= optimization. The Dragon has a higher Int than you. Why would it land in the middle of the party when it can easily stand off and breath-strafe, taking little, if any, damage?

True, but the end result is the same: the creature is a lot more efficient (and thus dangerous) that would be otherwise.

And to answer your question: because the DM underestimated just how effective the breath-strafe attack would be. I once ran an adventure which had a CR 6 dragon against eight level 6 adventurers. Between poor ranged weaponry, bad choices (clumping), and general confusion in the party, said dragon had reduced most of the party to near-dead while still being over half health. I finally landed the dragon for being cocky and territorial. (One of the PCs had ran into it's nesting area.)

[rubycona]

I'm playing a 3.75 game, a bunch of little house rules and edits for fun.

My understanding of CR from when I read that part of the DMG, is that a CR is supposed to match a party of 4 for that level. IE, 1 CR 10 is supposed to be an average encounter for an average party of 4 level 10s. The combined CR (I forget how it's put, where every doubling of enemies = +2 CR, up to a certain point) being how you judge groups.

And yes, my Avolakia had a bunch of minions. It's been a while since that particular battle (I've been playing since my husband took over DMing this game), but it basically turned into a monsters sitting still, and a I-hit-you-and-you-hit-me sort of thing. The Avolakia did stay back, and managed to avoid getting that pesky low AC seen by the players for a couple rounds, but as soon as they saw how bad his AC was, well, that was that XD Since the players worked together well, they ripped him to shreds.

I know that an intelligent monster Should fight intelligently, IE a dragon not dropping in and rawring at them. The thing is, I personally can't fight all that intelligently, which makes it extraordinarily difficult to make a believable encounter with a dragon.

There are some good points in here. It's a casual game, but I suppose what I'd need to do is demand an accounting (or perhaps demand is too harsh a word) of what a player has and can do. IE, spell lists, ACs, attack bonuses, etc. I remember those details pretty well, but sometimes I miss it.

I think the playtesting idea is probably my best bet :\ Getting my most powergamey player, who happens to be my husband, to fight me frequently in made up battles, just to get more practice in. It'd be awesome if I had a DM assistant, though XD Or maybe a computer near the D&D table >.>

Thanks for your help so far :) I'm looking forward to more

Edit: AslanCross, that was awesomely helpful ^-^ I normally have the roleplay side of things in my head, but that helps me see how I can apply that to combat better. And of course, thinking about those things ahead of time is very helpful. I'll probably print that off XD

[Starbuck_II]

Did you try that Enervation tactic?
Seeing as you really weaken people with that spell: it might have helped.

Really, it needs better spells. Color Spray or Hold Person would make it fearsome (even if 3/day).

But glad it had minions. So you did put some tactics into it; just broke down in the combat.

[sofawall]

True, but the end result is the same: the creature is a lot more efficient (and thus dangerous) that would be otherwise.

And to answer your question: because the DM underestimated just how effective the breath-strafe attack would be. I once ran an adventure which had a CR 6 dragon against eight level 6 adventurers. Between poor ranged weaponry, bad choices (clumping), and general confusion in the party, said dragon had reduced most of the party to near-dead while still being over half health. I finally landed the dragon for being cocky and territorial. (One of the PCs had ran into it's nesting area.)

Dragons are horrendously strong for their Challenge Rating. They can fly (really really fast) have a (long range/spread, somewhat high damage) breath weapon, good natural attacks, great AC, spells, and the best HD in the game. Adding to this the fact that with a high Int and a long life (giving much experience in tactics), they will often use every advantage and every enemy's disadvantage, Dragons are often extremely challenging, as you found out, at equal or lower CR.

[Starbuck_II]

While Dragons fly fast, most of that amount if used up due to their poor flying skills.

[sofawall]

While Dragons fly fast, most of that amount if used up due to their poor flying skills.

They cast spells, and have a hilarious amount of HD, and thus feats. Maneuverability? A problem? Don't make me laugh.

And who cares if you take forever to tun around, if you're half a mile away when you do it?

[erikun]

And yes, my Avolakia had a bunch of minions. It's been a while since that particular battle (I've been playing since my husband took over DMing this game), but it basically turned into a monsters sitting still, and a I-hit-you-and-you-hit-me sort of thing. The Avolakia did stay back, and managed to avoid getting that pesky low AC seen by the players for a couple rounds, but as soon as they saw how bad his AC was, well, that was that XD Since the players worked together well, they ripped him to shreds.

Well, from the number-crunching side, giving the troll(?) some simple armor would patch up the AC problem. +2 AC for leather, +3 AC for hide, as I doubt it has a very high Dexterity to be impeded by it.

Beyond that, perhaps take a cue from 4th edition and look at ways to make combat more interesting. It's a troll with a bunch of little goblin minions, right? (Probably not, but let's say it is.) How about, once the troll starts taking damage, it spends a round grapping one of the goblins, biting its head off to increase the troll's regeneration. The explanation could be whatever you want it to be - goblins being fed troll blood, the troll is a magical experiment - but it make it more like a "boss" and less like p.174 of MM2.

And since you seem to like storytelling more, feel free to expand on such oddities. Perhaps the party spies a lone goblin beforehand, trying to escape. Capture him, and he'll start babbling about the "giant, flesh-eating manbeast" that he's running away from, and begs the party not to eat him. It probably won't amount to much, especially if the party was after it to begin with, but it certainly makes the encounter more interesting.

[sofawall]

Well, from the number-crunching side, giving the troll(?) some simple armor would patch up the AC problem. +2 AC for leather, +3 AC for hide, as I doubt it has a very high Dexterity to be impeded by it.

Beyond that, perhaps take a cue from 4th edition and look at ways to make combat more interesting. It's a troll with a bunch of little goblin minions, right? (Probably not, but let's say it is.) How about, once the troll starts taking damage, it spends a round grapping one of the goblins, biting its head off to increase the troll's regeneration. The explanation could be whatever you want it to be - goblins being fed troll blood, the troll is a magical experiment - but it make it more like a "boss" and less like p.174 of MM2.

And since you seem to like storytelling more, feel free to expand on such oddities. Perhaps the party spies a lone goblin beforehand, trying to escape. Capture him, and he'll start babbling about the "giant, flesh-eating manbeast" that he's running away from, and begs the party not to eat him. It probably won't amount to much, especially if the party was after it to begin with, but it certainly makes the encounter more interesting.

It isn't a troll, it's just hard to kill, like a troll. (Or at least, that is what I gather)

EDIT: Reading back, I suspect I gathered wrongly.

[Starbuck_II]

Yeah, it has Regeneration and low AC like a Troll.
It has spell-likes but none are really useful in combat (barring 3/day enervation which is awesome). Ghoul touch is useful, but fort save has DC 20 (only work vs non warriors often).

[rubycona]

I tried the enervation, and as I recall... this was months ago... it worked on the wizard, but the other 2 tries, the rolls didn't pan out. And the one time it Did work, I only got 1 level out of it (stupid D4 >.>)

So, I Do try the special abilities, but for whatever reason, it never ends up working out. Like, a youngish green dragon (again, a while ago, either large or huge sized), I was all set thinking I'd use hover and they'd all be blind and such from the debris flying around. But then they caught it with an entanglement spell, and he was stuck for a while. That was one of my earliest fights, so I don't remember the details much at all. Then, he breaks away, to rest and recover, with like 3 hit points left, and the wizard + archer combo pulls out a true strike and manage to kill the dragon before he got out of range. Grar. I tried my best... I just didn't know what else I could do.

But there's a lot of good points here that should help :) Thanks again

[sofawall]

I tried the enervation, and as I recall... this was months ago... it worked on the wizard, but the other 2 tries, the rolls didn't pan out. And the one time it Did work, I only got 1 level out of it (stupid D4 >.>)

So, I Do try the special abilities, but for whatever reason, it never ends up working out. Like, a youngish green dragon (again, a while ago, either large or huge sized), I was all set thinking I'd use hover and they'd all be blind and such from the debris flying around. But then they caught it with an entanglement spell, and he was stuck for a while. That was one of my earliest fights, so I don't remember the details much at all. Then, he breaks away, to rest and recover, with like 3 hit points left, and the wizard + archer combo pulls out a true strike and manage to kill the dragon before he got out of range. Grar. I tried my best... I just didn't know what else I could do.

But there's a lot of good points here that should help :) Thanks again

You know, dragons are really hard to kill, if they just fly out of range, only going into range to hit with their Breath Weapon.

And by really hard to kill, I mean likely to result in a Total Party Kill unless you pull punches, or they are specifically prepared to fight it.

[Golden-Esque]

First off, don't forget that the Challenge Rating system works by comparing a group of 4 Adventurers's average level against the Challenge Rating of the Monster. Equal means that it should take a little work, but not be hard, and as you raise the level, it gets harder and harder for the players.

One thing the Challenge Rating system doesn't take into account, however, is number of targets. It's a lot easier to nuke one target then it is to kill a bunch of targets. If your big boss is going in their solo, then they need some kind of field-leveler. Personally, I love splitting the party up on fights, or adding twist objectives. Here's an example I used that might help out a Roleplaying Enthusist like yourself.

A Blackguard has raided a nearby town of its young children to raise them as servants of evil. The players fight through his layer to the boss. All of the town's children are chained to him; and as he charges into the fray, he drags the children along with him.

The Blackguard has a 20% concealment bonus against melee and ranged attacks, and if an attack misses like this, an attack roll is made on a child adjacent to the Blackguard. Now, children typically don't have a whole lot of Hit Points, being Level One Commoners and all . . . .

In order to sweeten the deal, prior the the dungeon, the adventurers were promised a big reward if all the children made it out safely. If you kindly remind your players before they attack that they could miss and hit a child, then all of a sudden that makes taking down the Blackguard all that more difficult; they'd be screwing with their loot if they don't think strategically.

I believe what ended up happening is the party's rogue ended up making some superb Pick Lock / Disable Device checks against the chains and freed the children :).

One thing I like to remember is that, on average, a party of adventurers is going to be tough. Also, the players WANT an epic encounter that they're going to remember. The best way to do that is to force the players to think and do things other then hack-and-slash on occasion. Also, don't be afraid of making a real challenge for the players, something that's a lot stronger then them. You'll be surprised with what they come up with. Here's an example:

My party and I were traveling through the desert when a purple worm started chasing us. We knew it was too strong for us, so we improvised a bomb using soem gunpowder we had, and as the worm popped its head up, our psion telekinetically thrust it into the worm's mouth as our ranger struck it with a burning arrow. The worm was enraged, so it popped out of the ground and started chasing us. Instead of fighting it head-on, we had our Monk (and his wonderful 50-ft speed bonus) run around taunting it as our party unleashed hell. It took several rounds, but the creature dropped.

So here's my list of tips:

1. Never try to guess your player's combat techniques. They never do what you expect. Ever.
2. Don't throw single mobs against a player unless they're sneaky, heavily fortified, or use some other mechanic (such as chained up children) to protect themselves.
3. Throwing swarms at players as a boss fight can be fun. One of the best nights I've ever played was against a zombie swarm. Fun times, fun times.
4. Be prepared to support your boss's motives. One time, my friend rolled a natural 20 on a Diplomacy check and we walked right past the boss. My DM was flabbergasted. Having reasons why they'll fight anyway is good.
5. Roleplaying and Combat aren't as separate as a lot of people thing they are, use your sense of epicness to make awesome fights.

[jiriku]

Wow! Ruby, I'm really impressed that you care enough about your game and your players to ask for help and plan some practice. I've had so many DMs who struggled to manage a combat but never had any interest in improving. My hat is off to you.

I'll start with recommended reading. Sun Tzu's Art of War has already been suggested, I'll second that. I'd also offer Miyamoto Musashi's Go Rin No Sho, and Nicolo Machiavelli's The Prince. These books, while very useful for tactical and strategic planning, can also help you with NPC design, storytelling, and plot development, so your research will do double duty for you. As a further plus, they're classic literature and pretty neat to read.

Now, on to Jiriku's DM laws of combat! These are presented in simple form to help you master the basics. Once you feel confident in how to do these things and can grok why you're doing them, feel free to bend the laws, break them, and improve on them.

Three rules before you enter combat:

Spoiler

Show

1. Action economy is king. Never enter combat unless your side can take more actions per turn than the players. They don't have to be better actions, just significant ones. (Mooks with one attack at +2 to hit don't count. Mooks with spells like grease or entangle do). Characters who can cast multiple spells per round or make multiple effective attacks per round count each action individually for this purpose.

2. Fight on favorable terrain. Do not enter combat unless your side can point to at least one terrain feature that will offer it a significant advantage. If you can't think of at least one, modify the battlefield before fighting begins to create one. If you're caught in a fight you didn't start and the terrain doesn't favor you, run away and make a stand somewhere else where it does.

3. Everyone wants to live. Before entering combat, step into the persona of each NPC and ask "how do I plan to survive this battle?" Come up with a convincing answer, or redesign your NPC until he/she does have a convincing answer to that question. If you don't have a convincing answer, that NPC should immediately retreat. D&D modules and monster manual entries have a bad habit of presenting monsters as if they have no purpose in life other than to die on the blade of a PC. This is crap. Every NPC always thinks that dying is a terrible idea and should be roleplayed accordingly.

Three rules during combat (They're the same! Isn't that cool?):

Spoiler

Show

1. Action economy is king. Attack the players' action pool. Every single round, do at least one thing that stands a chance of eliminating one player from the fight for at least one round. Attacking a player with 3 hp left is only the most basic form of this. Firing an arrow coated in a paralytic poison or executing a stunning attack is good. Spells lthat deny actions, like hold person, are good. So are effects like web that prevent a melee character from reaching a target, or blindness to prevent a ranged character from attacking. Be mindful of how casualties and player actions affect the action economy on a round-to-round basis. Your side should adopt a defensive posture if the action economy becomes unfavorable for one round (throw up barriers, heal the fallen, remove negative status effects), and retreat if it remains unfavorable for another two rounds.

2. Fight on favorable terrain. You've got terrain that favors you. Use it! Hide behind that pillar, climb that tree, get on that platform, lurk in those shadows. Deny your enemy's terrain! If the players latch onto a piece of defensive terrain, use caltrops, smoke bombs, or whatever to make it unfavorable for them. Smoke them out of it with spells like wall of fire, stinking cloud, and pyrotechnics. If the players deny you your favorable terrain, find some more double-quick. If you lose your terrain advantage and can't get it back, run away and fight where conditions favor you.

3. Everyone wants to live. Again, every NPC should have a valid reason why they expect to survive the fight. Whether it's "my plate mail will protect me", "they'll never find me while I'm invisible", or "I'll hide behind my minions", they've got some hope to cling to. Re-evaluate this for every NPC, every round. If your NPC realizes that their original plan for survival isn't going to work, they should either a) decide on a backup plan for survival and enact that plan immediately, or b) run away. The plan doesn't have to be elaborate ("I'll drink my potion of cure serious wounds!", but when an NPC can see that the status quo leads to certain doom, he/she should immediately attempt to change the status quo (not just stand and trade hits).

Now, live by these laws and you'll produce two specific results: First, NPCs never begin the battle as underdogs. They have action advantage, favorable terrain, and a game plan for surviving the fight. Second, your NPCs will fight smart, because you have three simple directives to structure the combat: contain the players through action advantage, secure advantageous terrain through maneuver or offensive action, and protect your side by reacting if players penetrate a defense that was thought to be sufficient. This gives you goals to focus on during the fight other than "deal damage".

Note that "deal damage" isn't anywhere on my priority list. It doesn't need to be. It will happen on its own while you're doing more important things.

Now, I touched on this before, but it bears repeating. These rules are presented as though they're laws to follow inflexibly, but every rule has exceptions. As you get good, you'll know when to disregard these rules and follow your own instincts. I'm sure others will offer better advice than I have, but I hope this helps you improve. My players live in terror of my combat encounters; I hope I help you bring the same fear to yours!

[TheCountAlucard]

Like the OP, I've done well enough at spooking the players, up until they actually start fighting the baddies. During my Innsmouth-inspired Aboleth adventure, the sixth-level PCs were running blindly away from CR 2 Skum and Commoner 1 villagers, but any actual fights that ensued generally resulted in the PCs repelling or killing the opposition within four rounds. Probably the best fight from that adventure had the PCs on a boat heading away from the town. Even then, when the big baddie had lured some of them belowdecks, he couldn't take very many of their hits and had to jump ship. However, killing the NPC pilot and following up with a stinking cloud big enough to envelop the ship kept the party busy long enough for him to make his escape. Much better than the time two of the PCs took on an opponent 4 CR higher than the party average and won.

[rubycona]

Wow! Ruby, I'm really impressed that you care enough about your game and your players to ask for help and plan some practice. I've had so many DMs who struggled to manage a combat but never had any interest in improving. My hat is off to you.

I'll start with recommended reading. Sun Tzu's Art of War has already been suggested, I'll second that. I'd also offer Miyamoto Musashi's Go Rin No Sho, and Nicolo Machiavelli's The Prince. These books, while very useful for tactical and strategic planning, can also help you with NPC design, storytelling, and plot development, so your research will do double duty for you. As a further plus, they're classic literature and pretty neat to read.

Now, on to Jiriku's DM laws of combat! These are presented in simple form to help you master the basics. Once you feel confident in how to do these things and can grok why you're doing them, feel free to bend the laws, break them, and improve on them.

Three rules before you enter combat:

Spoiler

Show

1. Action economy is king. Never enter combat unless your side can take more actions per turn than the players. They don't have to be better actions, just significant ones. (Mooks with one attack at +2 to hit don't count. Mooks with spells like grease or entangle do). Characters who can cast multiple spells per round or make multiple effective attacks per round count each action individually for this purpose.

2. Fight on favorable terrain. Do not enter combat unless your side can point to at least one terrain feature that will offer it a significant advantage. If you can't think of at least one, modify the battlefield before fighting begins to create one. If you're caught in a fight you didn't start and the terrain doesn't favor you, run away and make a stand somewhere else where it does.

3. Everyone wants to live. Before entering combat, step into the persona of each NPC and ask "how do I plan to survive this battle?" Come up with a convincing answer, or redesign your NPC until he/she does have a convincing answer to that question. If you don't have a convincing answer, that NPC should immediately retreat. D&D modules and monster manual entries have a bad habit of presenting monsters as if they have no purpose in life other than to die on the blade of a PC. This is crap. Every NPC always thinks that dying is a terrible idea and should be roleplayed accordingly.

Three rules during combat (They're the same! Isn't that cool?):

Spoiler

Show

1. Action economy is king. Attack the players' action pool. Every single round, do at least one thing that stands a chance of eliminating one player from the fight for at least one round. Attacking a player with 3 hp left is only the most basic form of this. Firing an arrow coated in a paralytic poison or executing a stunning attack is good. Spells lthat deny actions, like hold person, are good. So are effects like web that prevent a melee character from reaching a target, or blindness to prevent a ranged character from attacking. Be mindful of how casualties and player actions affect the action economy on a round-to-round basis. Your side should adopt a defensive posture if the action economy becomes unfavorable for one round (throw up barriers, heal the fallen, remove negative status effects), and retreat if it remains unfavorable for another two rounds.

2. Fight on favorable terrain. You've got terrain that favors you. Use it! Hide behind that pillar, climb that tree, get on that platform, lurk in those shadows. Deny your enemy's terrain! If the players latch onto a piece of defensive terrain, use caltrops, smoke bombs, or whatever to make it unfavorable for them. Smoke them out of it with spells like wall of fire, stinking cloud, and pyrotechnics. If the players deny you your favorable terrain, find some more double-quick. If you lose your terrain advantage and can't get it back, run away and fight where conditions favor you.

3. Everyone wants to live. Again, every NPC should have a valid reason why they expect to survive the fight. Whether it's "my plate mail will protect me", "they'll never find me while I'm invisible", or "I'll hide behind my minions", they've got some hope to cling to. Re-evaluate this for every NPC, every round. If your NPC realizes that their original plan for survival isn't going to work, they should either a) decide on a backup plan for survival and enact that plan immediately, or b) run away. The plan doesn't have to be elaborate ("I'll drink my potion of cure serious wounds!", but when an NPC can see that the status quo leads to certain doom, he/she should immediately attempt to change the status quo (not just stand and trade hits).

Now, live by these laws and you'll produce two specific results: First, NPCs never begin the battle as underdogs. They have action advantage, favorable terrain, and a game plan for surviving the fight. Second, your NPCs will fight smart, because you have three simple directives to structure the combat: contain the players through action advantage, secure advantageous terrain through maneuver or offensive action, and protect your side by reacting if players penetrate a defense that was thought to be sufficient. This gives you goals to focus on during the fight other than "deal damage".

Note that "deal damage" isn't anywhere on my priority list. It doesn't need to be. It will happen on its own while you're doing more important things.

Now, I touched on this before, but it bears repeating. These rules are presented as though they're laws to follow inflexibly, but every rule has exceptions. As you get good, you'll know when to disregard these rules and follow your own instincts. I'm sure others will offer better advice than I have, but I hope this helps you improve. My players live in terror of my combat encounters; I hope I help you bring the same fear to yours!

Oooh, this is fantastic :D I suppose I really ought to read Art of War, hehe. There's been a lot of really good stuff here. Stuff that Does, I confess, seem kind of obvious now that it's listed out like this, but it just never occurred to me to look at it that way. I hope I should be able to get things set up nicely to pick up the game again soon. (My husband, who's presently DMing, is looking forward to actually Playing again)