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Thread: Eldricht Knight

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    Default Eldricht Knight

    Hey Guys and Gals. I'm looking to play a character that's a fighter (or uses lots of fighter levels) that is capable of dropping some arcane magic in a tight corner. Actually just Magic. I want to fight completely without magic, but when the chips are down I'd like to be able to throw around some Dismissals, Banishment etc when taking on Outsiders/undead/etc.

    Any idea's - I was looking at Eldricht Knights - Good or bad class ?
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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    What books do you have access to? You'll definitely want Complete Mage for Abjurant Asskicker Champion.

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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    Fine class. However, the structure of D&D really lends much more support to "I shoot spells and occasionally hit things" rather than what you want to do.

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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    If you're looking for a fighter supplemented by arcane spells, I would suggest trying a Duskblade (PHB2). Additionally, it's possible to make a ranger or paladin who can cast wizard/sorcerer spells by way of the Sword of the Arcane Order feat.

    If you're trying to make a caster that can melee, there are many more options. As already stated, Complete Mage's Abjurant Champion is effectively the quintessential gish (read: figher/mage) prestige class, these days. Spellsword (Complete Warrior) and Dragonslayer (Draconomicon) are both good for a one level dip, while Eldritch Knight provides filler levels well. Swiftblade is another excellent gish prestige class, when used properly.

    If you're limited to core, the best way to do this is probably Sorcerer 8/Paladin 2/Eldritch Knight 10 or something. You snag your third iterative attack and seventh level spells, in addition to that nice divine grace.

    Outside of core, Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 is a favorite of mine. Sorcerers can pull shenanigans to get 9th level spells and the 10th level Swiftblade capstone by way of being a kobold.
    Last edited by ex cathedra; 2009-11-09 at 10:08 AM.

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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    I haven't checked how effective it would be myself, but how well would a Duskblade 18 / Sandshaper 2 work?

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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    I want a class that can go straight toe to toe without buffing/other magic effects. I basically wanna keep my spell casting secret from the party. Any ideas ?
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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    Barbarian4/Fighter2/Sorcerer2/DragonDiscuple4/Barbarian8

    You will get by fine without buffing, but can use wands without UMD. Don't expect to have any powerful spells at yoru disposal though.

    Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist8

    Good BAB and 9th level spells. Great saves.

    Fighter1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight10/Wizard4

    Gets 9th level spells as well. Obviously you'll want to mix in levels of Spellsword and Abjurant Champion if allowed.
    Last edited by Pharaoh's Fist; 2009-11-09 at 10:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    What level are you looking at? What books do you have? You mention arcane magic, but imply that divine magic might be okay too- is that correct?

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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    Hexblade, present yourself as a Ranger and get an improved familiar feat for one of the more beastly familiars. Give your hexes no visual element, and I'm pretty sure they get Use Magic Device as a class skill, so put skill points in that and pick up scrolls to cast the Sor/Wiz spells that you are unable to on your limited spell list.

    Pick up Spell Compendium, I'm pretty sure it has Hexblade spells to improve your list.

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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by Grifthin View Post
    I want a class that can go straight toe to toe without buffing/other magic effects. I basically wanna keep my spell casting secret from the party. Any ideas ?
    Still and Silent spell, focus on debuffs. Don't cast things that are obvious or flashy. Get the DM in on it, and pass him a note when you want to cast a spell.

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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    What is the Abjurant Champion ? and where can I see what it does ?
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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    The "Suel Archanamach" from CArc looks interesting, though I haven't really looked into it that much. As to Eldricht Knight, the real problem comes with AC. Since you don't get to ingore spell casting failure from armor you need a dex based fighter build. Getting intelligence or wisdom tacked on would be pretty decent too, so look into those classes. Swordsage and monks get their wisdom to AC for exampe, and the swordsage is out of tome of battle.
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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    You could pick up stuff like Arcane Strike, Divine Might or such and channel the energies, not mentioning where the boosts are coming from.

    It should be bloody obvious that a trained warrior who has only ever trained as a warrior is going to be a better warrior than a trained warrior who has spent half his life training spellcasting.


    That's something you can't get around. You can best less-trained (lower level) warriors just fine just on the pack of your martial prowess, but vs. an equal-level adversary, you'll have to somehow use your magical training to complement your martial training to compete. It doesn't need to be obvious, it doesn't need to be apparent, but it needs to be done.

    Suel Arcanamach [CArc] would be a good way to fit magical abilities to a mostly martial character. Just going base Gish also works, but you must again remember that taking even a single level in a caster class means that without using magic, you'll be a worse martialist than someone without caster class.


    Abjurant Champion is in Complete Mage. It's basically a full BAB full casting class with a bunch of casting+fighting combination abilities. It's a great entry to Eldritch Knight allowing you to maintain relatively high BAB and such.
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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by Grifthin View Post
    What is the Abjurant Champion ? and where can I see what it does ?
    As stated in the first and third replies, the Abjurant Champion is a prestige class in the Complete Mage book.

    Abjurant Champion is in Complete Mage. It's basically a full BAB full casting class with a bunch of casting+fighting combination abilities. It's a great entry to Eldritch Knight allowing you to maintain relatively high BAB and such.
    It would be a better EK entry if not for the prohibitive +5 BAB pre-requisite. Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree, though I feel like eldritch knight doesn't bring a lot to the gish table, if you will, when compared to its non-core alternatives. Of course, that's the very nature of power creep.

    Depending on your tactics, however, it's entirely possible for a gish to out-melee an equivalent level martial character.
    Last edited by ex cathedra; 2009-11-09 at 10:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    Still and Silent spell, focus on debuffs. Don't cast things that are obvious or flashy. Get the DM in on it, and pass him a note when you want to cast a spell.
    There's also a Skill Trick and possibly a feat that lets you disguise your spellcasting as normal talking and normal movements. Invisible Spell might be helpful as well (Cityscape). But keep in mind you're going to want most of your feats into melee-oriented stuff so that you can actually keep up, so unless flaws are allowed limit yourself on the concealment things.

    If you're not worried about optimization, you might consider going 5 levels in spellsword for the channeling, which would let you deliver spells as part of melee without being too obvious about it.

    Another option would be wizard/warblade/jade phoenix mage. ToB classes can come off as a bit gishy anywho, depending on how you play them, so the others might not catch on that some of your strikes are actually spells.

    As a warning though, you won't have the big guns that a wizard or the like does. You saving throws will be noticeably lower because your primary focus has to be on Str/Con instead of dumping everything into Int. Most of the offensive spells you take should be no-saves (like Enervation or Mass Curse of Impending Blades), and other than that focus on buffing yourself subtly.
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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by lsfreak View Post
    If you're not worried about optimization, you might consider going 5 levels in spellsword for the channeling, which would let you deliver spells as part of melee without being too obvious about it.
    No more than one level of spellsword! Rely on Smiting Spell for that!

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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    If you want to hide the fact that you cast spells from people, and don't mind divine magic, a Cleric with the Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell feat would do well. In the morning you hide from your party and cast Divine Power, Righteous Might, Divine Favor, etc. and for the rest of the day you're fighting as an equivalent level fighter, with spell slots in reserve for bad situations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aethernox View Post
    If you want to hide the fact that you cast spells from people, and don't mind divine magic, a Cleric with the Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell feat would do well. In the morning you hide from your party and cast Divine Power, Righteous Might, Divine Favor, etc. and for the rest of the day you're fighting as an equivalent level fighter, with spell slots in reserve for bad situations.
    Or as an Arcanist, be an Incantatrix and do pretty much the same; Arcane Disciple can add the key spells to your list (or Wyrm Wizard or Recaster or such). Pretend the process is just some form of meditation or such.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Or as an Arcanist, be an Incantatrix and do pretty much the same; Arcane Disciple can add the key spells to your list (or Wyrm Wizard or Recaster or such). Pretend the process is just some form of meditation or such.
    Naturally. Another alternative is to be a necropolitan with a level in Magic of Faerun's Spelldancer; the effects are similar.

    The Illumians from Races of Destiny can base their bonus spells off of Strength or Dexterity; this is particularly effective with spells like Bite of the Werebear from Spell Compendium.

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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    Even without DMM, Cleric is the easiest way of doing this.

    Barbarian 1/Cleric X is a fine build for most purposes. Grab Extra Rage (CW) and a couple domains with useful melee abilities (say, Celerity, Fate, Hunger, Liberation, Luck, Time, Travel from the PHB or SpC) or trade your domains for Domain feats from Complete Champion.

    Actually, Cleric X with the Fate domain an Animal Devotion feat or two could pass pretty well for a Barbarian without losing any spellcasting. You might want to be an Outsider to cover for weapon proficiencies. (To keep full casting, use LA buyoff with Planetouched, Planar Handbook races, the Divine Minion template, etc).

    Prestige Paladin (UA) makes a good 3-level dip and lets you keep near-full Cleric casting while letting you put on a show of being a typical Pally.

    Ordained Champion (CC) combined with some sources of extra domains (Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1, for instance) can turn any number of Domain abilities into bonus feats, if you want to be a useful melee character unbuffed.

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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by Grifthin View Post
    I want a class that can go straight toe to toe without buffing/other magic effects. I basically wanna keep my spell casting secret from the party. Any ideas ?
    There is a tad bit of a rub, trying to do that in 3.5 DND. By mid-level, flight is damned useful. Higher level? A necessity. Being able to buff yourself is more than useful, as both increasing numbers and options tilts combat in your favor.

    Now, as for hiding spellcasting? As others have mentioned there are several ways to this, but, really, one of the easiest would be to have the aforementioned skill trick and the spell Rope Trick. Use the skill trick before sleep while holding onto a "talisman." Jump into the rope trick, claiming it was a created by your item, a "gift" from [plot-relevant wizard]. Cast day long buffs during the day.

    If you have some ability to get Silent Spell and Still spell down to both +0 metamagics for all your spells, that is another option.

    As for the build itself, I'd either go Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 or Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/EK+5.

    If you're willing to eventually let your party members in on your secret, then things will be easier for you. Most have spells include Shield and (Greater) Luminous Armor (Book of Exalted Deeds). If GLA is not available, then talk with your DM to switch Mage Armor from Conjuration to Abjurant so it will benefit from Abjurant Champion.
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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    Psychic warrior makes a fine gish without multiclassing, and it's in the SRD.

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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by Grifthin View Post
    I want a class that can go straight toe to toe without buffing/other magic effects. I basically wanna keep my spell casting secret from the party. Any ideas ?
    Maybe you should go with psychic warrior. A lot of powers has displays that are subtle enough that you could use them without revealing yourself, at least to the layperson.

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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    Talk About thread necromancy

    I was actually considering Psychic warrior now due to me being allowed psionics as test run.
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    Default Re: Eldricht Knight

    I guess we need more information.

    What level spells where you looking to get?

    You mentioned dismissal which is a level 5 spell. so you need atleast 9 wizard levels or equivelent.

    if you want a fighter type with some casting i would highly recomend just trying to get level 3 spells or going something like suel anarachmac or what ever.
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