Flurry of Sneak Attacks?

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Was just thinking... if you had a monk/rogue, is it possible to sneak attack with flurry of blows?

With gestalt this could get particularly dangerous.

[kamikasei]

Why wouldn't it be? I would expect Sneak Attack to apply to a Flurry of Blows just as it might or might not apply to a given full attack or two-weapon barrage; did you have a specific concern as to why it would differ?

[Talya]

Was just thinking... if you had a monk/rogue, is it possible to sneak attack with flurry of blows?

Yes.

There are better ways to optimize sneak attack than to get stuck with monk levels though.

[Mongoose87]

Yes.

There are better ways to optimize sneak attack than to get stuck with monk levels though.

What if you somehow managed to dual wield monk weapons, without sucking? And had pounce?

[Fax Celestis]

I prefer taking a few levels of Totemist, using Girallon Arms and Sphinx Claws, and getting pounce and four claw attacks that you can sneak with.

[Burley]

What if you somehow managed to dual wield monk weapons, without sucking? And had pounce?

Pounce wouldn't matter, since pounce lets you make a full attack after a charge, and Failure of Blows isn't a full attack, it is a full-round action.

There is something I posted a while ago that invoved a Rogue/Monk, with Ascetic Rogue, who had the Master Thrower and Palm Throw... or something... And, you throw Spell-Storing Shuriken that had Scorching Ray in each.
It worked out to be something around 10 shuriken (each with full rogue SA damage) and each shuriken got 4 rays of 4d6 fire (each ray with full rogue SA damage). I also think they were all touch attacks, somehow...
So, 10(1d2) + 10(4(4d6)) + 10(4(10d6)).

Something like that. I'll search now.

[ericgrau]

What if you somehow managed to dual wield monk weapons, without sucking? And had pounce?

You can combine TWF with flurry. You may add on rapid shot with thrown weapons for that matter. Now to counter the effective -7 (vs. full BAB, no penalties), add some of the automatic hit cheese a lot of optimizers think is normal and you're good to go.

[Atelm]

I also think they were all touch attacks, somehow...

Master Thrower PrC (Complete Warrior) with the Weak Spot trick, perhaps?

[Foryn Gilnith]

some of the automatic hit cheese a lot of optimizers think is normal

How much is "a lot"? Since there are a lot of optimizers overall, "a lot of optimizers" that consider auto-hit par for the course may be composed of a minority of optimizers.

But snarky comments that contribute nothing aside, ericgrau does make the point that going overboard has its flaws. You might want to limit yourself to one or two of these things. I suggest you drop flurry of blows first, to have more sneak attacking or BAB class levels.

[ericgrau]

It's all usable (and appropriate for our goals) since this is theoretical, isn't it? There's already once crazy build posted. Though the method of touch attack there is perhaps less cheesy than others. "A lot" means it seems to hit every such thread at least once, if not multiple times. Sometimes even if the thread isn't theoretical.

[Studoku]

It is, I did this once by taking a 1 level dip into monk.

It probably wasn't too effective- the -2 to attack rolls would have caused me to miss more often than the extra attack hit (although it was a lot of fun).

[Burley]

Master Thrower PrC (Complete Warrior) with the Weak Spot trick, perhaps?

That's probably it.
I dunno, I posted that thing a long time ago, and I can't find it.
It was intense, though. Probably, the only reason I would play a monk (again) would be if I played an ascetic rogue/monk.

[Eldariel]

You would frankly probably be better off with Rogue/Swashbuckler going Daring Outlaw on the other side to maximize your BAB. Sneak Attack Fighter would be a reasonable option though, though losing out on all the skillpoints sucks. But yeah, not losing more than 1 BAB counts for a lot in the long run.

Of course, it's not a terribly impressive Gestalt overall, but it does work. It's even possible to do it all on one side of the build with Ascetic Rogue provided you stack them for Sneak Attack too like the table states (the text does not and as such this is not RAW). That would open up the other side entirely for full BAB + good stuff like Warblade for Tiger Claw fun.

[Person_Man]

First, consider your most common methods of damage dealing:

Skirmish: +0.875 per level (+1d6 every 4 levels)
Sneak Attack: +1.75 per level (1d6 ever 2 levels)
Most damage dealing spells: +1.75 per level (1d6 every 2 levels)
Power Attack: +2 per BAB (penalizes To-Hit or AC with Shock Trooper)
Leap Attack: +4 per BAB (need Pounce, same penalties as PA)

All of these can be boosted various ways. In particular, magic is easy to break, and Power Attack/Leap Attack can be multiplied multiple different ways (while bonus dice of damage cannot). But the base math is generally a good indicator. So if your goal is to get bonus damage, it's pretty clear to me that Sneak Attack is usually (though certainly not always) a less efficient method of doing so.

Next, take a look at the list of ways to get extra attacks. You'll notice that there are a lot of them. After you spend some time with the list, you'll come to the conclusion that Monk is a pretty inefficient way to get a couple extra attacks.

So, if you want to play a Monk/Rogue or Monk//Rogue for other reasons (fluff, Skills, Stunning Fist, Evasion) then by all means do so. But if you want bonus damage and/or extra attacks, then it is an inefficient method of doing so. (Assuming you care about efficiency).

[JellyPooga]

If you want to optimise Flurry of Blows, then the Disciple of the Eye PrC is probably better than straight Monk on a gestalt. It advances FoB and also gives you (stacking) fear effects on every hit. A Monk 6/DotE 5 on one side of your gestalt isn't so bad (assuming you have something good on the other side of the gestalt, like Warblade if you're going martial) and will give you your +2 attacks at no penalty (as a Monk 11) as well as the DotE abilities in place of the crud you get as a Monk from levels 5 to 11.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Fear save DC based on Charisma.

[Volkov]

First off, ask your DM if he can make it so that monks have a BAB that is equal to their hit dice like fighters, dragons, outsiders, barbarians, and so on. Then you can start thinking about having any monk levels.

[golentan]

Skirmish: +0.875 per level (+1d6 every 4 levels)
Sneak Attack: +1.75 per level (1d6 ever 2 levels)
Most damage dealing spells: +1.75 per level (1d6 every 2 levels)
Power Attack: +2 per BAB (penalizes To-Hit or AC with Shock Trooper)
Leap Attack: +4 per BAB (need Pounce, same penalties as PA)

Why does nobody ever include Craven in sneak attack the way they automatically include leap attack for power attack?

And at the OP, yeah. What I recommend doing to play an optimal monk/rogue if you can is going Gestalt Monk (prefer unarmed swordsage)/Rogue. Go a few levels in a full BAB monk prestige class, as well.

Take the feats Craven, Snap Kick, Roundhouse Kick (I think that's the one, if 3.0 is grandfathered in), Two Weapon Fighting, Imp. Two Weapon Fighting... etc. Now make an obscene number of attacks (including power attack) against a flanked foe or one incapacitated by stunning fist. Include Time Stands Still and some crazed boosts (dual boost FTW) for even more killy goodness. Your base damage calculation is now number of hits (out of 10, or 20 with Time Stands Still, or more with boosting cheesy goodness) x 2d10 + 20 + 15 + Str + Boosting Cheesy Goodness. If you want to be good, substitute "Touch of Golden Ice" from BoED for Craven as a fun ability debuff.

Admittedly, you're still worthless against foes of your level. Sneak attack, stunning, ability damage and all is worth NOZZING against most creatures you're facing. But you're at least an awesome Jacky Chan kind of worthless, and you can take on as many orcish mooks as you feel like, throwing more punches a second then early gatling guns. And if you have unarmed swordsage you aren't actually worthless, so I guess it works out kinda? And if you can rapid shot with shuriken life gets better.

[KillianHawkeye]

throwing more punches a second then early gatling guns

Considering the fact that gatling guns don't actually throw punches, this isn't a very effective endorsement.

Nice build, anyway!

[Curmudgeon]

First, consider your most common methods of damage dealing:

Skirmish: +0.875 per level (+1d6 every 4 levels)
Sneak Attack: +1.75 per level (1d6 ever 2 levels)
Most damage dealing spells: +1.75 per level (1d6 every 2 levels)
Power Attack: +2 per BAB (penalizes To-Hit or AC with Shock Trooper)
Leap Attack: +4 per BAB (need Pounce, same penalties as PA)

Sneak Attack with Craven: +2.75 per level

Let's add this for comparison purposes.

[Random NPC]

Take the feats Craven, Snap Kick, Roundhouse Kick (I think that's the one, if 3.0 is grandfathered in), Two Weapon Fighting, Imp. Two Weapon Fighting... etc. Now make an obscene number of attacks (including power attack) against a flanked foe or one incapacitated by stunning fist. Include Time Stands Still and some crazed boosts (dual boost FTW) for even more killy goodness. Your base damage calculation is now number of hits (out of 10, or 20 with Time Stands Still, or more with boosting cheesy goodness) x 2d10 + 20 + 15 + Str + Boosting Cheesy Goodness. If you want to be good, substitute "Touch of Golden Ice" from BoED for Craven as a fun ability debuff.

Admittedly, you're still worthless against foes of your level. Sneak attack, stunning, ability damage and all is worth NOZZING against most creatures you're facing. But you're at least an awesome Jacky Chan kind of worthless, and you can take on as many orcish mooks as you feel like, throwing more punches a second then early gatling guns. And if you have unarmed swordsage you aren't actually worthless, so I guess it works out kinda? And if you can rapid shot with shuriken life gets better.

Needs more Dakka

[golentan]

Needs more Dakka

All my builds always do. I also did the MOAR DAKKA FIRE CANNON, and am working on a storm of arrows, and did some dakka based ships for Traveller, and have played a thri-keen swordsage with arm grafts and every single attack number increasing boost.

But for a slapdash guideline, I think that's decent dakka. Toss in some haste, and some raging mongoose, and you're almost approaching "bare minimum dakka."

[PhoenixRivers]

Wizard 5 / Unseen Seer 1 / Arcane Trickster 10 / Archmage 4 //
Rogue 1 / Monk 2 / Ardent 17

+7d6 Sneak attack (+9d6 with assassin's stance through feat), Casts level 9 spells at level 17, 9th level Psionic powers at level 17, has flurry of blows.

Between Psionic Action Advantage Abuse, Invisibility or flanking, and Touch spell abuse (a couple good ones are Storm Touch and Scalding Touch - Magic of Eberron), you could really hurt things.

At level 10, for example:
Storm Touch = 9d6 damage + 3d6 Sneak attack per touch (10 touches for the spell).

At level 12?
Storm Touch = 9d6 damage + 6d6 Sneak attack per touch (assuming Assassin's stance through feat, 12 touches for the spell).

Level 14?
Scalding Touch = 13d6 damage + 7d6 sneak attack per touch (assuming Assassin's stance through feat, 14 touches for the spell).

Attack bonus isn't phenomenal, but you can flurry touch attacks, and add in craven for more fun.

[Thespianus]

Sneak Attack with Craven: +2.75 per level

Let's add this for comparison purposes.

Also, it should be remembered that these numbers are per attack.

A TWF-enabled sneak attacker gets plenty of attacks. If you can get them to hit, the numbers go up..up.. up! :)

[Superglucose]

A single level of monk isn't that bad. You lose +1 to hit for an extra attack, and +2 to all saves rather than +1 to rogue, plus d8 HD and lose out on 4 skill points.

Still there are much better ways of optimizing sneak attack.

[Thespianus]

Wizard 5 / Unseen Seer 1 / Arcane Trickster 10 / Archmage 4 //
Rogue 1 / Monk 2 / Ardent 17

+7d6 Sneak attack (+9d6 with assassin's stance through feat), Casts level 9 spells at level 17, 9th level Psionic powers at level 17, has flurry of blows.

Grab Unseen Seer 2 as well, get Advanced Learning for the Ranger's Hunter's Eye-spell, and you get 1D6 extra sneak attack per three caster levels, for another 5D6 of Sneak Attack, for that special someone in your adventuring life. ;)

[PhoenixRivers]

Hunter's Eye is divination?

EDIT: Sure is.

Wizard 5 / Unseen Seer 2 / Arcane Trickster 10 / Archmage 3 //
Rogue 1 / Monk 2 / Ardent 17


There. Hunter's Eye available.

Now, swift action sneak attack boosts of +2d6-5d6.

At level 11:
Storm Touch = 9d6 damage + 6d6 Sneak attack per touch (11 touches for the spell).

At level 13?
Scalding Touch = 13d6 damage + 10d6 Sneak attack per touch (assuming Assassin's stance through feat, 13 touches for the spell).

Level 15?
Scalding Touch = 13d6 damage + 12d6 sneak attack per touch (assuming Assassin's stance through feat, 15 touches for the spell).

Level 17?
Scalding Touch = 13d6 damage + 13d6 sneak attack per touch (assuming Assassin's stance through feat, 17 touches for the spell).

Level 18?
Scalding Touch = 13d6 damage + 14d6 sneak attack per touch (assuming Assassin's stance through feat, 18 touches for the spell).