Class Balance In RHOD

[Delandel]

I plan on running RHOD in the Eberron setting. The level range of the campaign is 6-10 I believe. I want to encourage my melee-oriented players to try out ToB due to my brief but very enjoyable experience in a campaign with that material. I think the Eberron setting looks nice and can add additional flavor to the module.

This is my first time really using Eberron and TOB, so I'm not too familiar with it but I read it all. When I didn't play with those sources, I had a couple houserules in effect : 1) nightsticks don't stack 2) there are no focused specialists 3) druids take shifter variant in PHB2 4) random stinky cheese is banned, like abrupt jaunt variant, polymorph, dragonwrought loredrake kobolds. This was basically to tone down the Big Three just a bit.

I was wondering though, with TOB allowed, do I need any such restrictions for the Big Three anymore? Keep in mind this is levels 6-10. How do TOB characters compare to clerics / wizards / druids at that level? I'd still ban stinky cheese of course.

Also, is there anything in the Eberron setting that I should look out for that may alert my cheese radar, or is it basically kosher?

Thanks for the help.

[sonofzeal]

Artificers are nasty nasty powerful if played well, peaking out well above even Wizards with enough expendable gold.

Banning Nightstick stacking is reasonable and doesn't limit Clerics much, but the

Shapeshift variant for Druids is a massive drop in power. I'd let them keep their Animal Companions at least.

Focussed Specialists are good but fun to play too, and I don't really see the issue with banning them. If you want to nerf wizards, just restrict access to scrolls beyond the 2/level they learn automatically.

Banning random cheese is good. I'd add "Iron Heart Surge" abuse onto that too.


....also be warned that ToB is kinda OP in levels 1-5, imo. If you're starting past that, it shouldn't be much of a problem.

[The Glyphstone]

On the other hand, RHOD (from what I've read) is a very time-sensitive campaign, and Artificers need time to make all their ridiculous magic items.

[sonofzeal]

On the other hand, RHOD (from what I've read) is a very time-sensitive campaign, and Artificers need time to make all their ridiculous magic items.

Negated somewhat if they're allowed to have crafted as much as they want during character creation.

[Akal Saris]

Looks fine to me. You should make it clear that artificers probably won't have any time within the game to fashion items, and probably limit the # of items created by the artificer before the game as well.

A lot really depends on your players, after all. A well-played crusader 8 will overshadow a poorly played shapeshift druid, and vice versa.

Good luck!

[AslanCross]

I'm running RHOD in Eberron with TOB as well. Please click on the link in my sig and read my Campaign Journal; I hope it will help you a lot.

The biggest issue with the module for Artificers is that it has very little downtime; the adventure is a race against the advancing Red Hand, so crafting-oriented characters will have very little downtime to do their magic. As a result, consider using the Unearthed Arcana craft point variant in the SRD; this will allow an artificer to create magic items. We used this variant until the party's artificer got blown away.

You will definitely need to rework several of the Wyrmlords---Kharn is especially underwhelming against a party with TOB users. As far as the Wyrmlords go, Ulwai is the only one who doesn't need massive reworking.

I have never placed restrictions on the big three since my players rarely put together broken combos that make the game unfun for everyone. I do have a cleric in my current party, albeit she's using the cloistered cleric variant and is playing with relatively manageable domains (Magic and Force). Avoid nerfing the cleric--the BBEG is one. If you nerf him to the extent that he becomes a lousy last boss, the deadliness of the adventure is going to implode.

Eberron has a place in the setting for psionics, so consider allowing that as an option as well. My party has a psion and she's served as an incredibly powerful blaster. She died in our most recent session, though.

Negated somewhat if they're allowed to have crafted as much as they want during character creation.

Not really. I've played artificers who started at level 5, and the amount of items they can make then is severely limited even if we were allowed to create magic items upon CharGen. The low caster level also limits what is usable.

Again I reiterate that the Craft Point variant is a good way to get around the lack of downtime.

[Delandel]

Artificers are nasty nasty powerful if played well, peaking out well above even Wizards with enough expendable gold.

Dang, really? I'll have to look into this class more.

I'd add "Iron Heart Surge" abuse onto that too.

I just read that ability for the first time now. Wow. Skip a turn to auto-succeed dispel something you failed to save? That's amazing, but I don't think overboard (maybe 1/encounter?). What type of abuse do you speak of though? Frenzied berserker springs to mind, and I wouldn't allow it to be used this way.


Aslan, I'll definitely be reading your journal, sounds pretty much like what I want to do. I'm familiar with the module and I'll be reworking many of the important NPCs, and tweak them more once the party is fully formed and I know their relative power. I don't see how not allowing nightsticks to stack is "too much" for clerics, allowing them to walk around with their most important buffs persisted/quickened is ridiculous cheese, and they still could metamagic a couple by taking the Extra Turning feat. I like psionics and was planning to allow it. I'll look into the craft point variant -- though this talk of artificers kind of scares me.

[sonofzeal]

Dang, really? I'll have to look into this class more.

Mostly, it's their ability to apply metamagic to wands, allowing them to Nova to ludicrous extents. The fact that they can do pretty much anything else in the game, at lower level than anyone else, is also sweet.

Basically, they solve problem by throwing gold/xp(/time) at it. Everything awesome they can do consumes a reasonable quantity of at least one of those. "Nothing is impossible. What you want is merely expensive".

I just read that ability for the first time now. Wow. Skip a turn to auto-succeed dispel something you failed to save? That's amazing, but I don't think overboard (maybe 1/encounter?). What type of abuse do you speak of though? Frenzied berserker springs to mind, and I wouldn't allow it to be used this way.

It's the "or effect" line that freaks some people out. Depending on how you read the feat, a Drow with it could cancel the sun. Read more here.

Now, that said, it's pretty easy to just say no and only allow sane uses. It's 1/encounter, it's only on the Warblade list, and it consumes one of their highly limited Maneuvers Readied slots. It's still good, but only unbalanced if you're overly literal. As a general rule of thumb, the best approach is to let them cancel the condition, ie they're not affected by it anymore, rather than cancelling the source of the condition.

[lsfreak]

Yea, canceling an ongoing spell on them really isn't that big a deal. Melee *needs* a way of dealing with things like Glitterdust and Web and Ray of Exhaustion. The problem is when the warblade removes the entire Web, the entire antimagic field, the entire whatever, not just ignores its effects.

And, of course, the goofiness that comes from "effect." Pray a nihilist never becomes a warblade and he realizes existence negatively effects him.

[sonofzeal]

Just to clarify - there's really only two ambiguous rules I know of in ToB (what Iron Heart Surge actually ends, and whether you can White Raven Tactics yourself). That's rather under par for a WotC book, really, and I still consider it one of the most internally-balanced books they've ever put out, with just about every major path coming out pretty darn equal.

IHS is also pretty easy to fix, if you use "effect" in the non-technical sense.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Iron Heart Surge is a damn good maneuver, but no one is stupid enough to buy the arguments advanced that a Drow can end the sun or anything.

Just be smart as a DM, and IHS works fine. And I don't like the notion of preventing them from canceling the underlying spell. Part of the power of the Warblade and the Crusader (the two classes with access to the ability) are their ability to shield other people. IHS is just an extension of that.

[BooNL]

Adding another warning here:

A lot of the module's difficulty lies in the lack of downtime and extended (wave) battles. This is primarily useful to drain a wizard's resources, and it works perfectly for that.

The problem with ToB is that they keep on truckin' all day long (warlocks as well, but I usually count them as archers instead of spellcasters), so every time they get a minute to rest they are as ready as at the start of the day.
This means they'll probably plow through a couple of tough combats with ease, as attrition wil never set in for them.

[Akisa]

Iron Heart Surge is a damn good maneuver, but no one is stupid enough to buy the arguments advanced that a Drow can end the sun or anything.

Just be smart as a DM, and IHS works fine. And I don't like the notion of preventing them from canceling the underlying spell. Part of the power of the Warblade and the Crusader (the two classes with access to the ability) are their ability to shield other people. IHS is just an extension of that.

The drow can end the sun effect, however she would receive the effect again right away anyway :P.

[Saintheart]

When it comes to taxing your ToB characters a bit, fight fire with fire. Upgrade the leaders of the hobgoblin raiding parties at least into ToB classes themselves.

I'm running a RHOD campaign in Faerun for levels 6-10, too, with some helpful suggestions from a more experienced DM. One of his suggestions was to take all those "bladebearer" character types and turn them variously into Crusaders or Warblades.

Admittedly I don't have any dedicated ToB classes in my campaign. One of the characters has a martial maneuver and a martial stance, but otherwise that's it. I'm also running it for an insane 8 characters at once. Which includes...

- Avariel Duskblade (winged elf. +3 LA hurt her but she loves the character concept. Even so, aerial mobility on the battlefield in this campaign is a massive advantage, one to consider carefully if you're contemplating letting winged types into this scenario.
- Human Bard (vanilla, late entry to the campaign, though he's optimised at his present Level 7 to give +5s on his Inspire Courage.)
- Human Wolf Totem Barbarian
- Elven sorcerer (though he just became a Dragonborn)
- Human cleric (War-focused; she's the one with martial maneuvers.)
- Human cleric (Healbot.)
- Half-elf rogue (vanilla).
- Human rogue/swashbuckler (mostly vanilla)

Having said that, even a level 4 Warblade hobgoblin armed with two short swords in the first raiders' encounter was enough to scare the hell out of the party. He took one character down to single digit hitpoints with one maneuver. Lots of capacity there to make things really ugly. I was recommended, and therefore recommend because it worked well for his ToB maneuvers:

Maneuvers: Battle Leaders Charge, Emerald Razor, Leading the Attack, Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang Strike
Stances: Blood in the Water, Leading the Charge

Also, we found personally -- although, again, we had double the standard number of damage sources to deal with -- that pumping up each of the dragons by one age category makes them a much more viable threat.

We haven't reached the Ghostlord's lair as yet, but I'm pondering over whether to turn that little bunch of hobgoblin monks into unarmed swordsages. Hmmmmmmmm..

[lord_khaine]

This means they'll probably plow through a couple of tough combats with ease, as attrition wil never set in for them.

Sure it will, its just in the shape of lost hp.

Also, with ToB chars in the party, then i really dont think its nececary to limit the druid to the shapeshifter variant.

[BooNL]

Sure it will, its just in the shape of lost hp.

Also, with ToB chars in the party, then i really dont think its nececary to limit the druid to the shapeshifter variant.

Crusader Strike. You have unlimited healing as well, sort of...

I'm not saying the module is impossible with ToB, I think the various journals on these boards proved the opposite. I'm just saying, be mindful that attrition will set in at a far slower rate for your party. They will be able the accomplish things the creators didn't account for.

For example: with enough healing wands, the battle of Brindol will be a cakewalk, as every wave they have their full potential.

[Rainbownaga]

The drow can end the sun effect, however she would receive the effect again right away anyway :P.

Actually, that would be incredibly counterproductive as they are blind in the first round and dazzled afterwards- By surging away the sun effect they give themselves an extra round of blindness at the cost of an encounter power, and all for possibly 1 round of not being dazzled. Not a very good trade.

[Oslecamo]

Sure it will, its just in the shape of lost hp.

Say hello to the crusader, his attacks that heal on a strike, and his blind fanatism:

This rock is my enemy! That tree also! I hate you, I hate you too, I hate everything(but my party members)! SMITE EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING!

Hey, look, my fanatism has just cured me of those sword stabs and skin burns! Violence is the answer to everything!

Togheter with IHS to remove any non HP ailment, yes, they can pretty much run all day.

[AslanCross]

When it comes to taxing your ToB characters a bit, fight fire with fire. Upgrade the leaders of the hobgoblin raiding parties at least into ToB classes themselves.

I'm running a RHOD campaign in Faerun for levels 6-10, too, with some helpful suggestions from a more experienced DM. One of his suggestions was to take all those "bladebearer" character types and turn them variously into Crusaders or Warblades.

Admittedly I don't have any dedicated ToB classes in my campaign. One of the characters has a martial maneuver and a martial stance, but otherwise that's it. I'm also running it for an insane 8 characters at once. Which includes...

I made them Fighter/Warblades.

We haven't reached the Ghostlord's lair as yet, but I'm pondering over whether to turn that little bunch of hobgoblin monks into unarmed swordsages. Hmmmmmmmm..

Do it. :D I highly recommend it. My players were immensely frustrated with their dragonchain grappling and they were quite durable compared to the original monks. I even bumped them up to 5th level.

EDIT: Also, regarding Tome of Battle characters never getting tired: Honestly, this hasn't really come up in my game. The only battle where the characters are in danger of running out of steam is

Spoiler

Show

the Battle of Brindol.

Granted this is supposed to be the climax of the adventure and I haven't gotten to that part yet, I think I'd actually WANT the PCs to NOT run out of combat options. (Else they'd be utterly vanquished by Kharn)
And think of it this way---Spiked Chain Fighters and Uberchargers don't run out of their combat options any more than TOB characters do.

[kjones]

A lot of people have been saying that RHoD is for levels 6-10 - it's actually 5-10. The front cover of the book says 6, but the stuff inside says 5, and starting at 5th level makes a lot more sense. The encounters are balanced with regard to a 5th level party, and starting at 5th level means you can wait until somewhere in Chapter I (probably) before you choose your 3rd feat.

[Delandel]

Say hello to the crusader, his attacks that heal on a strike, and his blind fanatism:

This rock is my enemy! That tree also! I hate you, I hate you too, I hate everything(but my party members)! SMITE EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING!

Hey, look, my fanatism has just cured me of those sword stabs and skin burns! Violence is the answer to everything!

Togheter with IHS to remove any non HP ailment, yes, they can pretty much run all day.

But when he's healing the party with strikes, he's not doing that much damage, right? That's what I assume at least. And he can only heal so much at a time. I think it'd balance out if you just double the amount of archers shooting at him.

Unlimited out of combat healing can be easily fixed by not allowing healing strikes to work outside of combat. Done. Even then, I don't think it's that big of a deal, considering how often parties will have someone with UMD and a wand of lesser vigor that accomplishes the same thing.


I've been looking into ToB more and it seems like I shouldn't really place any restrictions other than nightsticks not stacking. Artificers, however, scare the bejeezus out of me. They look more powerful than clerics on DMM cheese. I think "bowficers" or whatever they're called, swift casting Hunter's Mercy with a Burst weapon enchant, would probably olbiterate everything in their way on top of all the magical items they'd be churning out. Should I straight-up ban them or restrict them? How do they fare compared to ToB?

[Eldariel]

Artificers' achilles' heel is crafting time. The module places a premium on that; I don't think they're going to be too problematic. Even with a Dedicated Wright or two (which cost), he'll still have to be careful with what he chooses to craft.

Also, the really good stuff doesn't come together until he gets Metamagic Item infusion and Metamagic Spell Trigger, which is a bit later. At most, limit their wealth somewhat; an artificer should work out just fine.


Really, if you're allowing the rest of tier 1 with only minor nerfs, Artificers shouldn't be too much of a problem either; not in this particular module, anyways.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Artifcer archers are good, but Archivist ones are better. If I could figure out a way to add Wis to knowledge checks, I could make one on something like 16 pt-buy that beats non-casters with 32 pt-buy in basically every category.

[Thurbane]

I don't know much about the Artificer, but I believe their schtick is crafting items? Is so, RHoD is going to be a tough module - you get very, very little downtime during the flow of the adventure. When we ran it, there was barely time for scribing spells into spellbooks.

[sofawall]

Just to clarify - there's really only two ambiguous rules I know of in ToB (what Iron Heart Surge actually ends, and whether you can White Raven Tactics yourself). That's rather under par for a WotC book, really, and I still consider it one of the most internally-balanced books they've ever put out, with just about every major path coming out pretty darn equal.

IHS is also pretty easy to fix, if you use "effect" in the non-technical sense.

Actually, that is not ambiguous. It is expressly spelled out. RAW is clear. Saying otherwise is misinterpreting.

That isn't to say it isn't really really stupid, however.

[sonofzeal]

I don't know much about the Artificer, but I believe their schtick is crafting items? Is so, RHoD is going to be a tough module - you get very, very little downtime during the flow of the adventure. When we ran it, there was barely time for scribing spells into spellbooks.

If the Artificer gets to start game with all his stuff, he should be fine. In combat, they can get insane use out of Wands/Scrolls, and while he'll need to pace himself for the whole campaign, he should still be thoroughly useful. Wands don't burn out that quickly.

Also, Artificers get Craft Homunculi as a class feature, and the same book that introduced them also introduced the Dedicated Wright, a tiny variant Homunculus that crafts for you when you're not around.

Actually, that is not ambiguous. It is expressly spelled out. RAW is clear. Saying otherwise is misinterpreting.

That isn't to say it isn't really really stupid, however.

I believe there's been contradictory FAQ rulings on the subject.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If the Artificer gets to start game with all his stuff, he should be fine. In combat, they can get insane use out of Wands/Scrolls, and while he'll need to pace himself for the whole campaign, he should still be thoroughly useful. Wands don't burn out that quickly.

Also, Artificers get Craft Homunculi as a class feature, and the same book that introduced them also introduced the Dedicated Wright, a tiny variant Homunculus that crafts for you when you're not around.


I believe there's been contradictory FAQ rulings on the subject.

Sig.wordiness

[sonofzeal]

Sig.wordiness

Noted. However, that won't keep people from debating it.

I'm of the opinion that RAI was that it was meant for your friends, not to give yourself extra turns. But that's just me.