Being a Demon, 3.5e.

[Edwin]

So, I had this idea. Or rather, an idea I've had a million times that resurfaced.

Basically, I was wondering how one would go about playing a campaign where one was a devil?

In the sense that you would start out as a Dretch, and then slowly evolve to higher powered demons as you gain levels. Perhaps even hitting the rank of Demon Lord or something similar.

So yeah, there, how could I do that?

[Boci]

Devil or demon? I'm guessing demon since devil is only mentioned once. You start as a dretch and rise towards a new form. Choose that in advance and whenever you gain a level, you start to move towards that new form. Higher states, some of its sp abilities, weaker versions of it special attacks that gradually get stronger until you become that new demon. Then you choose your next demon and the proccess starts again.

[Kaiyanwang]

You are mixing Demons and Devils.

Nevetheless, I think that this campaign idea could be VERY good, expecially with DEVILS.

Take a look in FCII: there are rules (that you can take as simple sugestions) about how they advance.

Could be a millennia-spanning, role play heavy campaign. Great.

The same about demons.. (FCI). But I gues.. with more combat, maybe. Or depends from the advancements - I guess that a Devil campaign with a lot of Blood War could be combat heavy anyway.

[Ravens_cry]

Devils=LAWFUL Evil. Demons=CHAOTIC Evil.

[Edwin]

Not as much mixing devils and demons as I simply forgot which one I truly wanted.

Anyway, the FC II's outlines for promotion is for devils, though I'm sure you could easily transfer it to demons.

Problem is, it's not truly as definite as I wanted it. It would require a lot of homebrewing to make it work. Not that I mind.

Awesome suggestions people, keep'em coming.

Edit: Dude, I know what the difference between a demon and a devil is. That particular post is as useless as it is obnoxious.

[TheCountAlucard]

Some time back, I was considering running a game set in the Abyss, during a time when the tanar'ri were still in the process of overthrowing their obyrith masters. From what I read in FCI, it sounded like a pretty exciting time.

I had a table for demonic "promotions" for tanar'ri PCs, but I can no longer find it.

[weenie]

One way of doing it would be to play a demon that was bound in mortal form, but can still access some of his demonic powers. There's a neat class by Rich Burlew that fits this role perfectly, The Champion, but that may not be what you want to play..

[Edwin]

One way of doing it would be to play a demon that was bound in mortal form, but can still access some of his demonic powers. There's a neat class by Rich Burlew that fits this role perfectly, The Champion, but that may not be what you want to play..

While I appreciate the input, I have to agree with you last comment - no, not what I was thinking.

The Champion has a too.. holy warrior, flavor to it. And I don't want a demon-in-a-mortal-body thing, because one, I want actual demons, and two, the idea of someone playing something as puny as a Dretch is hilarious.

But thanks anyway.

Some time back, I was considering running a game set in the Abyss, during a time when the tanar'ri were still in the process of overthrowing their obyrith masters. From what I read in FCI, it sounded like a pretty exciting time.

I had a table for demonic "promotions" for tanar'ri PCs, but I can no longer find it.

Awwwww, I really could've used that table..

[dsmiles]

In Palladium's Mystic China setting, which I paraphrase from regularly in my campaigns, there is a R.C.C. (racial character class for those not familiar with Palladium's system) that is called "Reformed Demon." I think a reverse of that progression would be useful for powering up a demon from a dretch or manes to something more powerful.

EDIT: Also, the 3.0 book "Savage Species" has some good rules for starting a demon character at level 1.

[Lycanthromancer]

A player in my PbP Planescape game (Gorgondantess) is playing an imp right now. He's going to gain a few outsider HD, then the next time he levels up he's going to find himself ascended (descended?) to the next fiendish form, with a few slight modifications to make him slightly more party-friendly.

I agree. It is a nice idea.

[Edwin]

In Palladium's Mystic China setting, which I paraphrase from regularly in my campaigns, there is a R.C.C. (racial character class for those not familiar with Palladium's system) that is called "Reformed Demon." I think a reverse of that progression would be useful for powering up a demon from a dretch or manes to something more powerful.

Not aware what Palladium's Mystic China setting is, but it sounds viable.

Would you care to elaborate a bit more?

[dsmiles]

If you can wait till tomorrow, I can bring the book to where I am and give a full explanation of the Reformed Demon via PM or e-mail or post it here. I am at work on my lunch break and don't have the book here.

May be able to get it here, I can't access this site at work:

http://www.torrentreactor.net/torren...d-a-few-others

EDIT: You may have to read a few other Palladium books to translate their system into DnD terms.

[Telonius]

I'd say that it might be a decent idea. If I were to do this as a DM, I'd probably set it up so that you start out as a Lemure, then gain HD as a Lemure. When you reach a level plateau (probably 3) you can keep advancing as an Lemure, or switch over to Imp for some sort of cost. (Probably measured in "souls corrupted"). More powerful devils will be available as you increase in HD. You don't have to switch if you don't want to. If you want to skip over Ice Devil and go straight on to Horned Devil, you'd be able to.

[Edwin]

EDIT: You may have to read a few other Palladium books to translate their system into DnD terms.

Then it may be more trouble than it's worth.

I was thinking of possibly making a system for customizing your character to fit the demon/devil you want.

Say, for example, you pick a path, like, brute, which gives you different abilities to choose among, sort of like spending feats. Then at higher level, you pick a new path, this time you pick say, seduction, which has an entirely different array of abilities to pick from.

Of course at different levels there would be some sort of bodily alteration you pick, to represent your demon/devil changing. I'm thinking of working all of this into a class, so that you get all of this in addition to normal feats and whatnot.

My only concern about that would be peoples unwillingness to try new things, which is sadly common on the great interweb. Not as bad when it comes to classes, but still.

Is that an acceptable way to do it?

Edit:

I'd say that it might be a decent idea. If I were to do this as a DM, I'd probably set it up so that you start out as a Lemure, then gain HD as a Lemure. When you reach a level plateau (probably 3) you can keep advancing as an Lemure, or switch over to Imp for some sort of cost. (Probably measured in "souls corrupted"). More powerful devils will be available as you increase in HD. You don't have to switch if you don't want to. If you want to skip over Ice Devil and go straight on to Horned Devil, you'd be able to.

I thought of this, but I was concerned that the lack of choices and alteration of your character would be a let-down for any player.

[TheThan]

Funny, I was considering using a succubus sorcerer, as a BBEG (big bad evil girl in this case). anyway it beats the tar out of a succubus paladin.

[Edwin]

Funny, I was considering using a succubus sorcerer, as a BBEG (big bad evil girl in this case). anyway it beats the tar out of a succubus paladin.

Not really applicable to my current predicament, but still an interesting enough contribution.

[dsmiles]

Have you looked in the Savage Species?
You could have the level 1 demon have the listed abilities for his/her Type, but look like a lesser Type.

[Edwin]

Have you looked in the Savage Species?
You could have the level 1 demon have the listed abilities for his/her Type, but look like a lesser Type.

Not sure I follow.

I've got Savage Species, but I don't know what you're referring to.

[TheThan]

Not really applicable to my current predicament, but still an interesting enough contribution.

Yeah, I know, but it was worth mentioning.


Now I was looking around and I see you have three primary ways of going about allowing such characters in a game.

The first is to use the savage species progressions presented in well… savage species. The other option is to just allow them to take the demon as a race and let them advance normally, then apply the reducing level adjustment rules presented in the SRD.

Both are valid options, though the level adjustment reduction will end up taking some characters nearly into epic level before it’s fully bought off.

Now the last option is one I would only use if you’re pcs are all monsters. That is to totally ignore level adjustment and allow them to level up normally. You might have to kick up the challenge of the enemies your throwing at them, but its doable.

[dsmiles]

In Savage Species, some of the demon Types (old term, I guess they use individual species names now), are broken down into a level progression. If you want to start as a lesser demon, and work your way up to a greater demon, just follow the level progression for the greater demon using physical changes as milestones for the manes or dretch that is getting "promoted."

As a for instance: Your dretch/manes demon gains a level as a Succubus. Ok, they gain the level bonuses listed in SS, plus they recieve a physical change such as looking more human, or gaining the tail or small horns, etc. Also, they would lose one of the dretch/manes abilities (not that there are many to lose).

[Edwin]

Yeah, I know, but it was worth mentioning.


Now I was looking around and I see you have three primary ways of going about allowing such characters in a game.

The first is to use the savage species progressions presented in well… savage species. The other option is to just allow them to take the demon as a race and let them advance normally, then apply the reducing level adjustment rules presented in the SRD.

Both are valid options, though the level adjustment reduction will end up taking some characters nearly into epic level before it’s fully bought off.

Now the last option is one I would only use if you’re pcs are all monsters. That is to totally ignore level adjustment and allow them to level up normally. You might have to kick up the challenge of the enemies your throwing at them, but its doable.

Problem with all three options is that it limits the difference and characterization of the PC's severely, effectively almost making everyone the same friggin' thing, which is less than fun.

A possible option would be gestalt with Savage Species classes, which, if the current project I'm working on drops, is probably the best option I have.

But even then, it's just not quite as fun. See, if you look at the many, many demon princes out there, you'll notice that they're all vastly different, one being a giant two-headed baboon, the other being a slug etc.

That's the part I want in a demon game. Freedom in your creation, making a unique demon. I don't just want a couple of balors running around pwning peoples doodz.

No, I want interesting, special demons, with motivations and with few traits in common. One could be a flaming hyena, the other a translucent carebear with horns.

Point is, picking a demon of the monster list just wont do if I have a say in it.

In Savage Species, some of the demon Types (old term, I guess they use individual species names now), are broken down into a level progression. If you want to start as a lesser demon, and work your way up to a greater demon, just follow the level progression for the greater demon using physical changes as milestones for the manes or dretch that is getting "promoted."

As a for instance: Your dretch/manes demon gains a level as a Succubus. Ok, they gain the level bonuses listed in SS, plus they recieve a physical change such as looking more human, or gaining the tail or small horns, etc. Also, they would lose one of the dretch/manes abilities (not that there are many to lose).

This seems good. I'll look into it.

Also, yeah, demons haven't been divide into types since what, 1e? Partly in 2e? I think it was type I, II, III, IV and so on in 1e, and lesser, something, greater and true in 2e. Not sure though.

[dsmiles]

I feel old.

[Frog Dragon]

There was a Make Your Own Outsider in this forum. I think it was Krimm Blackleaf's work, but I'm not sure. Didn't find it with search though. If you find it, it could be what you're looking for.

[Edwin]

There was a Make Your Own Outsider in this forum. I think it was Krimm Blackleaf's work, but I'm not sure. Didn't find it with search though. If you find it, it could be what you're looking for.

What exactly is it?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If you're the DM(or have a good supply of bribes), I'd recommend playing a monsters game. Basically, you eliminate LA and ECL, and the party levels by CR instead. It would require a group willing to limit their own power and not go overboard, but it would allow charcter concepts like this, or a Dragon player, or similar awesomeness.

[Edwin]

If you're the DM(or have a good supply of bribes), I'd recommend playing a monsters game. Basically, you eliminate LA and ECL, and the party levels by CR instead. It would require a group willing to limit their own power and not go overboard, but it would allow charcter concepts like this, or a Dragon player, or similar awesomeness.

I'm well aware of these options, but they're simply not what I am looking. I appreciate you mentioning it, but I'm not looking for a monsters game.

I want a game where you start off as a low powered demon/devil, and work your way up through the ranks of hell or the abyss or whatever.

What I do not want, is picking the already existing demons of the SRD, slapping on some class levels, or breaking them down ala Savage Species, and call it a day.

What I am looking for, is a way to customize the PC demons from scratch, eventually creating unique, powerful demons who possibly could topple a low ranking prince. And one of the ways I'm doing this, or attempting to, is homebrewing a class that allows just that.

I was hoping to get some suggestions from you guys on ways to do, so yes, I'm appreciative of you input, but it's not the right style.

[Xefas]

There was a Make Your Own Outsider in this forum. I think it was Krimm Blackleaf's work, but I'm not sure. Didn't find it with search though. If you find it, it could be what you're looking for.

My work just got confused with Krimm Blackleafs'?

I don't think I've ever felt more accomplished.

Link to the Make Your Own Outsider

Keep in mind, this was initially just the (admittedly simplistic) proto-version. I fully intended (and intend) to make a newer version that's much more awesome in every way. I just...haven't gotten around to it. Real life, writer's block, etc.

[Edwin]

My work just got confused with Krimm Blackleafs'?

I don't think I've ever felt more accomplished.

Link to the Make Your Own Outsider

Keep in mind, this was initially just the proto-version. I fully intended (and intend) to make a newer version that's much more awesome in every way. I just...haven't gotten around to it. Real life, writer's block, etc.

Aha, see this! This is something that I can use, and big time so.

It's very close to what I'm doing, but much more simplified.

I've gotta read this through thoroughly.

Thanks man.

[Crafty Cultist]

You could have the party as souls that end up in hell. they start out as normal characters but gain demonic abilities based on story accomplishments.

[Edwin]

You could have the party as souls that end up in hell. they start out as normal characters but gain demonic abilities based on story accomplishments.

That was suggested earlier, and as I said then, I want demons, not mortals IN SPA.. Hell.

It's a cool idea, sure, but let's stick to one theme at a time.