thinking about switching to 4e

[Ozreth]

Can anybody point out some of the huge differences in 4e? I really dont know much about it. I know I could probably download the books somewhere and do the research but Id rather talk to you people about it! I know a lot of people have been making the switch and enjoy it sooo...whats the scoop?

[Tyndmyr]

I'm presuming here that you're playing 3.5 currently...

There's no harm in trying out the freebie downloadable 4e starter stuff. That'll give you a feel for if you like the style or not. It's very different from 3.x, and there's a lot of strong feelings on both sides as to which is preferable. Definitely find out if it's for you before shelling money out on it.

Also, I strongly suggest not trying to convert existing campaigns from 3.x to 4e. It's a recipe for disappointment, as the differences are...large.

[Ozreth]

I'm presuming here that you're playing 3.5 currently...

There's no harm in trying out the freebie downloadable 4e starter stuff. That'll give you a feel for if you like the style or not. It's very different from 3.x, and there's a lot of strong feelings on both sides as to which is preferable. Definitely find out if it's for you before shelling money out on it.

Also, I strongly suggest not trying to convert existing campaigns from 3.x to 4e. It's a recipe for disappointment, as the differences are...large.

Ah, I didnt know about the freebie stuff, on the wizards site I presume? Ill check it out, thanks! Yeah I was planning on just scrapping my current campaign and starting fresh.

Thanks.

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah, hang on to your old character sheets if the old campaign has any interest still at all, and give the new stuff a one shot or two to see how people like it.

Should be on wizard's site, yeah.

[Kylarra]

test drive for 4e.

[Mordokai]

Also, I strongly suggest not trying to convert existing campaigns from 3.x to 4e. It's a recipe for disappointment, as the differences are...large.

I'll just pipe in and said our DM did it with Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and so far it works fine.

[Kylarra]

I'll just pipe in and said our DM did it with Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and so far it works fine.

It's not impossible, but it does require some familiarity with the system, and is probably not the first thing you want to do.

[Ozreth]

I'll just pipe in and said our DM did it with Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and so far it works fine.

Im pretty new to DMing, I doubt id be able to pull it off hah. Youre liking it though?

[Tyndmyr]

It's not impossible, but it does require some familiarity with the system, and is probably not the first thing you want to do.

Right. Anything *can* be converted between any systems if you really, really want to. It's just a matter of how much work, and if it's worth it. Going from 3.x to 4 is a lot more work than going from 3.0 to 3.5(pretty easy) or even 2 to 3 or 1 to 3(not terrible).

[tcrudisi]

Im pretty new to DMing, I doubt id be able to pull it off hah. Youre liking it though?

One of the big positives about 4e is how "DM friendly" it is. I don't want to speak for other people, but let me put it this way: I've never heard anyone say they think running 3.5 is easier than running 4e, but I've heard a lot of people say how much easier 4e is to run than 3.5.

It is much different than 3.5. Combats, especially. But give it a few sessions and make your decision from there.

[BobVosh]

Nooo! Don't sell your soul for pure unadulterated evil!

Ok, anyway:

• CR actually works (except for select creatures, see drakeling swarm I believe)
• Skills are simplified
• Out of combat magic takes 10 minutes, money, and skill checks.
• In combat you have 3 types of powers: dailies, encounter, and at will.
• After combat you pretty much always take a 5 minute rest to recharge encounter powers and use healing surges (based off con and class I believe...been a while).
• Healing surges can be used in combat for a quick heal, and a lot of the better healing spells cost one.
• Magic Marts don't really exist, selling/disenchanting gives you 1/5 cost.
• Most items have special abilities.
• Flying is gone. Except for some monsters
• All classes use one system, and multiclassing is based off feats. Lets you switch some powers between the classes.
• All classes therefore have the same number of powers, feats, and abilities.

Those are the main points for 4ed. The biggest complaint for me is...all the classes felt exactly the same, the monsters took forever to kill, and out of combat magic is stupid.

[Mordokai]

Im pretty new to DMing, I doubt id be able to pull it off hah. Youre liking it though?

Yeah, the group is having fun. But you'd likely have some troubles, if you are new to DMing, as you say. And it did take considerable effort on his part.

[Katana_Geldar]

4e is somewhat more optimised in terms of mechanics, like skills and things like that. The abridged alignment system has quite a few negative reactions to it.

A lot of the big things for classes have been taken off though. Rogues can no longer use bows to Sneak Attack, Paladins no longer get the summoned mount. Bards have a lot of good stuff done to them, as do fighters to some extent.

I also find rituals very good, as it means Wizards don't lose as many save spots for utility spells, even though they still have a few of those. And if you're trained in the skill and have it, you can use it. Heck, a Barbarian could use Raise Dead as long as he was trained in Religion (or is it Heal).

[Cazarir]

Well, that is little difficult question, which still gets flamewars started here and there, but say at least my opinion

Well, 3rd edition and 4th edition are so completely different, that it is little hard really compare them to each other, but there are few things:

First of all, game has been balanced greatly, no longer high level wizards who can beat everyone else with three different spells during same round. There are really no longer any spells, all classes have bunch of powers, that are usable at-will, once per encounter, or daily, and do things that classes do. So, fighter has power that he strikes enemy in leg, and target then takes damage and is slowed for one round, or wizard has power that shoots fireball, and so on. There are not so many utility powers, but because of that there are rituals. They are like spells, that take very long time to cast, and do things. For example you dance around and burn some of your money, and then you can detect lies for rest of encounter.

Magic items are even more common than during 3rd, they are more or less common items, and all magic items are more or less greatly balanced/weakened. Vorpal sword used to kill instantly on critical, now it just makes that when you throw maximum number on damage dice, you can throw it again and add that to damage.

Characters have way more hitpoints than they used to, and everyone also do less damage, so 1st level wizard can now actually survive if someone hits him with a grataxe. Downside in this is that fireball does now 3d6 points of damage, and no more never

Monsters have been changed, and they give exp differently. every monster is worth some exp (like in second edition, I always liked that more than that cr system) and when party beats monster, they get it's exp.

Combat is now more interesting, since everyone have special abilities they can use, and fighter is not just "hit-damage-hit again". However, combats also tend to take longer time, since everyone has more hp, and do less damage. Normal kobold has over 40 hp, if it is not minion. Minions are type of monsters that have just 1 hitpoint, and more or less cannon fodder. Although, some minions, like ogres are not really that easy, since a ogre minion hits just as hard as normal ogre does

Well, I have to leave for work, so this was just quick glance in this topic Oh, and all this was just my personal opinion, written in hurry, so forgive me if I forgot something important

[Ozreth]

Nooo! Don't sell your soul for pure unadulterated evil!

Ok, anyway:

• CR actually works (except for select creatures, see drakeling swarm I believe)
• Skills are simplified
• Out of combat magic takes 10 minutes, money, and skill checks.
• In combat you have 3 types of powers: dailies, encounter, and at will.
• After combat you pretty much always take a 5 minute rest to recharge encounter powers and use healing surges (based off con and class I believe...been a while).
• Healing surges can be used in combat for a quick heal, and a lot of the better healing spells cost one.
• Magic Marts don't really exist, selling/disenchanting gives you 1/5 cost.
• Most items have special abilities.
• Flying is gone. Except for some monsters
• All classes use one system, and multiclassing is based off feats. Lets you switch some powers between the classes.
• All classes therefore have the same number of powers, feats, and abilities.

Those are the main points for 4ed. The biggest complaint for me is...all the classes felt exactly the same, the monsters took forever to kill, and out of combat magic is stupid.

Hm most of that dosen't sound bad at all. From what I gather it seems like 4e is a lot less flipping through the books during your game, but I could be wrong.

Im mostly tempted to play because every time I go to the book store I see some flashy new 4e book and think it would be nice to be there one new stuff comes out for once, as I started playing d&d with 3.5 around 2005 or 6, most of the books were already out.

Also, as most of my original gaming buddies have moved or moved on, I am planning with almost all new gamers now, except for one, and I think running a 4e game would be a lot more streamlined for all the new gamers (and i mean completely new to gaming in general, but definitely having fun with d&d).

All the classes feeling the same would be a huge minus though...

[Katana_Geldar]

If you're going to DM 4E, you'll need DDI. Really, it helps a lot.

[Ozreth]

Cazarir: Thanks for that lengthy response! You dont make it sound all that bad, but it does sound like an altogether different game.

I think Ill just have to talk to the group and maybe give it a whirl soon.

[Ozreth]

If you're going to DM 4E, you'll need DDI. Really, it helps a lot.

Hey Katana I follow you on Twitter! I mentioned something about your blog and you never responded


I was checking out DDI, seems kind of cool but at the same time it seems like it would take away a lot of the old school d&d essence. Even using a program to build your character and it adds everything up for you step by step? Meeeh.

[BobVosh]

Hm most of that dosen't sound bad at all. From what I gather it seems like 4e is a lot less flipping through the books during your game, but I could be wrong.

Im mostly tempted to play because every time I go to the book store I see some flashy new 4e book and think it would be nice to be there one new stuff comes out for once, as I started playing d&d with 3.5 around 2005 or 6, most of the books were already out.

Also, as most of my original gaming buddies have moved or moved on, I am planning with almost all new gamers now, except for one, and I think running a 4e game would be a lot more streamlined for all the new gamers (and i mean completely new to gaming in general, but definitely having fun with d&d).

All the classes feeling the same would be a huge minus though...

I found it to be a lot more flipping through the books. However with power cards it wouldn't be too bad. Also it wasn't too much flipping considering it was brand new to 5 out of 6 of us. (last guy was DM and he memorized the whole thing practically.)

I did my best to keep the bias out. Looks kinda praising now I look back XD

[Kylarra]

Yeah, I'll definitely second/third/whatever the use of power cards. Makes combat go a lot faster, especially with precalculated maths.

[Katana_Geldar]

DDI comes in handy for new players as well as communicating with your players prior to the game.

My DM asked us to all send the DDI file of our character sheets beforehand so he could approve. It's also good to make sure the characters are nice and legal even if you do begin it the old fashioned way.

[Gralamin]

Noticeably, some of the newer classes are breaking the mold. There does look to be room for diversification under the system. There are some annoying things, but thats bound to happen with any system.

[Ozreth]

Power cards are definitely appealing to me also.

Also, I apologize for starting a thread about this (probably the zillionth since 4e was released), I somehow missed the giant thread at the top of the page completely related to 4e. Im flipping through that stuff now but we can keep talking on here too : )

I just downloaded Keep on the Shadowfell. I think Im just gonna go ahead and run this and see how it goes.

[Tyndmyr]

One of the big positives about 4e is how "DM friendly" it is. I don't want to speak for other people, but let me put it this way: I've never heard anyone say they think running 3.5 is easier than running 4e, but I've heard a lot of people say how much easier 4e is to run than 3.5.

It is much different than 3.5. Combats, especially. But give it a few sessions and make your decision from there.

It's quite easy to run a campaign in 4e. It's quite difficult to run a campaign that doesn't consist mainly of dungeon crawling in 4e. I would never, ever bother with a sandbox styled campaign there.


Edit: Yes, playing without power cards will result in stupid amounts of flipping through books. I made this mistake my first game...take the time to get power cards. It's pretty much assumed that you'll use them.

[Katana_Geldar]

Huh. I'm in the middle of 3 4E campaigns and none of them have gone near a Dungeon, the closest I have gotten to one is in my Star Wars Saga Edition campaign, which is 4E's older brother/cousin.

[Tiki Snakes]

It's quite easy to run a campaign in 4e. It's quite difficult to run a campaign that doesn't consist mainly of dungeon crawling in 4e. I would never, ever bother with a sandbox styled campaign there.

Ahaha, aha. Yeah. I'm totally putting together a 4e sandbox already, so I am amused in several ways by this statment.
Especially considering it's my first attempt at a Sandbox style campaign in any system, also. ^_^

[Thajocoth]

It's quite easy to run a campaign in 4e. It's quite difficult to run a campaign that doesn't consist mainly of dungeon crawling in 4e. I would never, ever bother with a sandbox styled campaign there.


Edit: Yes, playing without power cards will result in stupid amounts of flipping through books. I made this mistake my first game...take the time to get power cards. It's pretty much assumed that you'll use them.

When I first started, there were only the first 3 core books of 4e. By the 3rd session, everyone had written their powers on index cards. Now we all use DDI and add the missing info to the cards. (The total when we crit, all the special cases, ect...)

I'm in 2 games, was in a 3rd, and am running my 2nd. None of them have consisted mainly of dungeon crawls and all have been fun. One didn't even have any dungeon crawls at all.

[its_all_ogre]

i can't imagine attempting a sandbox style 4e game either, you'd need to have encounters adjustable on the fly to make that work.
but also i've not had many dungeon crawls either so that comment does not make sense.

get DDI and if you use your brain power you'll save tons of money and will all have access to character builder etc

[Leolo]

I believe the main difference is that the designers actually thought about things like:

Why should this (or that, or the next thing) work like it does? What improvement to the game does it have?

Therefore many things are reworked. And this has lead to some positive aspects and also to some negative, of course. From my point of view there were two main aspects of the new design:

• All classes should have enough combat actions to do at least one decision in every round. Therefore if you are playing a rogue you no longer hit someone sneaky or not - you now hit him with a special action. It is a difference if you are feinting him to switch places with him or if you are hitting him and jump behind your fighter friends back. Or if your attack was more a brutal streetfighter trick or a move of grace and combat art.
  
  As part of this design there are far less duplicate options, too. There are no more spells usable to 3-4 classes. And some combat options open to all characters in 3.5 are now open to one special class.
  
  The positive side effect is: Description matters. Because the type of your action makes a difference, players where encouraged to describe it. They could even invent own special actions that where as effective as their regular powers and use a system within the rules to determine results. And the rules tell the DM: Let them try! Say yes!
  
  The negative side effect is: If someone is not paying attention to the game or do not know what action his character should do, combat gets a lot longer than before. And more tactical options also means: Tactic gets more important, at least that important than preparation was in previous editions. Also, because everyone has tactical options some classes feel less special than before. If the fighter no longer chooses between "Full Attack" and "Attack" other classes have to find other differences between fighters and their own class. (The rants regarding "they are all equal" come from this side aspect, although they do not really make sense. Classes are equal the way fireball, invisibility, holy strike and shooting someone with your bow are "equal")
  
  
• The second main aspect is that the designers have quoted: "This is a game. It should make fun to play it."
  
  Obviously this was always a game, and always people are having really a lot of fun with it. But the quotation is not wasted. The previous D&D Edition has some simulation aspects. For example: If something exist in the world, the players can use it. If a monster has some ability it have gained it the way characters could gain it. If you are wandering through a wood this has effects to you the same way running up a hill does.
  
  Of course it does - and it does still in 4E. But the difference is: In 3.5 things like this are part of a rules system. In 4E these things apply if a DM think they would improve the situation. So equivalent obstacles may have two different effects if you have to overcome them in two different situations. The resolution is much more storybased. This also applies to monsters and characters. One orc may be very different to an other - their abilities are so that they create a interesting encounter, not really based on a level up process you (as a DM) has made with them as if they are characters.
  
  And some character options where made weaker or more difficult than before. If you come to a cliff there is a good chance you are not able to simple teleport or fly to the downside. You will have to climb or think how you can resolve this problem. If you want some information - scrying is not the best option - sending the rogue or bard into town may be.
  
  That is no design decision made by thinking about if it would be plausible that no one likes to invent this magic to resolve problems like a cliff or missing information. Or - because those magic does exist in 4E but is considered more powerful than before: Invent an easier way to access this.
  
  The design decision is made because of there is not much room for story or description if you simple snip your fingers and teleport to the evil guy.
  
  So 4E is much more narrative and gamistic than previous editions.

[tcrudisi]

I just downloaded Keep on the Shadowfell. I think Im just gonna go ahead and run this and see how it goes.

Wait --- don't do it! I don't mean 4e. I love 4e and think it's a blast.

But Keep on the Shadowfell? Let me be as polite as possible. It's the first module that was made for 4e. And when I say first, what I'm really saying is, "The writers were not creative and the module is boring." I know it's free, but may I suggest poking your eyes out? That's also free and it's a lot more fun.

In all seriousness, do any other module. Keep on the Shadowfell is just ... it's so straightforward and not well written. Please, do any other module.

*edit* I do want to correct something mentioned above. Players can fly. Not all of them can, mind you, but not all of them could fly in 3.5 either. Oh, your 3.5 character had Winged Boots? Well, those exist in 4e too. Also, there are class abilities to allow characters to fly, but they are higher level. The earliest I know of someone getting it is level 9.