4ed minions in 3.5

[BobVosh]

Pretty much what the name suggests. I liked minions, a lot. I've been pondering how to implement them, and as always, magic is a thorn in my side. Especially stuff like cloudkill, or circle of death.

I know someone here mentioned a system like this for D20, anyone got the rules/source for it?

[HMS Invincible]

You could use the normal rules for minions and then add a rule that says anything that doesn't try to hit their defenses don't affect them.

[dyslexicfaser]

What's wrong with just making the appropriate creature and then reducing it to 10 hp or so?

I admit I never really got into 4e, but that seems to mimic the minions rather well.

[BobVosh]

Still leaves the question of leaving it as 10 HD, or 2? Cloudkill kills, or what?

I had the thought of doing MR from 2ed. Just ignore it if you fail the %.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Fireball is an issue, as well. And Web+torch. And Whirlwind attack or Great Cleave. And Alchemist's Fire. And Magic Missile.

Basically you're making enemies a strong wind can take down, in a game where strong winds are 1st level spells. You'll have issues.

[BobVosh]

Whirlwind + cleave aren't a concern. They require attack rolls. Scorching Ray is the same way. MM is what worries me. Which leaves the question of "would 50% MR be adequate?"

[Sstoopidtallkid]

MR?

Also, they may require attack rolls, but Whirlwind and Greater Cleave, against guys with less than decent AC(mooks, after all) will be basically auto-hits. It's hard enough to make NPCs with decent AC when they're the same level of the party as-is.

[BobVosh]

Minions are suppose to be mooks with good damage and AC. Just a glass jaw.

Moreover great cleave is generally considered a waste, and whirlwind is rarely worth taking that many feats.

MR=spell resistance from 2ed. You just completely ignore spells if they don't meet the percentage.

[Commander_Vimes]

I have implement minions in my 3.5 games with success. My minions have the special rule that if they make their save against any effect they ignore it entirely, so effectively they have evasion and mettle. This way a fireball will kill a bunch of minions, but a few will make their save and stagger onwards.

For things like Cloudkill you could give them counts as HD so they can make saves.

[Mando Knight]

Take their saving throws, and if they succeed at the throw, they don't die, even if it normally deals damage on a save. Keep their HD for determining spell effects, but only give them 1 HP total regardless of their HD.

Let auto-damage kill them, since it does so in 4e as well, and auto-damage abilities usually aren't as powerful anyway.

[Quietus]

Alternatively, leave them as "standard" encounters - full AC, full damage, etc - but give them minimum hit points. A "mook" fifth level dwarf fighter with 14 con (16 after racials) thus has 20 HP, as opposed to 42. Reduce exp granted accordingly.

[jmbrown]

Alternatively, leave them as "standard" encounters - full AC, full damage, etc - but give them minimum hit points. A "mook" fifth level dwarf fighter with 14 con (16 after racials) thus has 20 HP, as opposed to 42. Reduce exp granted accordingly.

I don't know why I never thought of this.

Area of effect spells and multi-hit attacks were specifically designed to deal with minions in 4E. The idea isn't that minions are supposed to be, by themselves, challenging but rather minions act as support for normal monsters. The fighter in your example is still as skilled as a 5th level fighter and while he probably won't go down from a single fireball, it would definitely hurt. A lot.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

An idea I borrowed from Star Wars d20 was that non-heroic NPCs only got their CON in HP (despite having multiple levels, and all the other benefits thereof), and any damage on them required a Fort save (DC5+damage) to avoid being knocked unconscious.

[Starbuck_II]

Still leaves the question of leaving it as 10 HD, or 2? Cloudkill kills, or what?

I had the thought of doing MR from 2ed. Just ignore it if you fail the %.

Minions are level appropriate so HD appropriate. So Cloudkill won't kill them unless it wold kill you.

[LibraryOgre]

My suggestion:

Minions have 1 HP, but are considered to have as many HD as members of their race normally do. They have a +3 to AC and saves at levels 1-5, +5 at 6-10, +7 at 11-15, and +10 at 16-20. Any attack which does not hit them, or against which they make a save, do not kill them.

[lesser_minion]

The Minion rule (missed attacks don't damage minions) can be a slight problem if players start working out who the minions are, because it messes up the effectiveness of different attack types in different ways.

I'd suggest something like giving minions a very small number of hitpoints (2/HD + 2 per point of Con bonus, maybe), and ruling that any attack that doesn't kill them outright is ignored. That should cut down bookkeeping, avoid weird quirks like the 4e Minion rule, and also avoid problems like a fireball auto-killing every single minion on turn 1.

[LibraryOgre]

The Minion rule (missed attacks don't damage minions) can be a slight problem if players start working out who the minions are, because it messes up the effectiveness of different attack types in different ways.

I'd suggest something like giving minions a very small number of hitpoints (2/HD + 2 per point of Con bonus, maybe), and ruling that any attack that doesn't kill them outright is ignored. That should cut down bookkeeping, avoid weird quirks like the 4e Minion rule, and also avoid problems like a fireball auto-killing every single minion on turn 1.

On the other hand, you can also rule that any attack minions save against doesn't affect them, which is analogous to "didn't succeed in attack roll against reflex".

[lesser_minion]

On the other hand, you can also rule that any attack minions save against doesn't affect them, which is analogous to "didn't succeed in attack roll against reflex".

That doesn't get around the possible metagaming issue that comes up in 4e.

[Quietus]

I don't know why I never thought of this.

Area of effect spells and multi-hit attacks were specifically designed to deal with minions in 4E. The idea isn't that minions are supposed to be, by themselves, challenging but rather minions act as support for normal monsters. The fighter in your example is still as skilled as a 5th level fighter and while he probably won't go down from a single fireball, it would definitely hurt. A lot.

Yup. You might have to give them evasion/mettle, though... a random fifth level Wizard might have, say, 12 con, giving them 10 HP. 5d6 is usually gonna throw 17 damage... half of that ... they'd survive, actually. That's not bad. A good roll drops the minions, if they save, and if they don't save, they're smoked. Depends on how minion-ish you want them to be, though. Could just give them a flat "1/2 damage from area effects", which you can tack saves on top of, if you want them to last longer.

[Saph]

The problem isn't with 3.5 magic, it's with the entire concept of minions. As soon as you start including enemies with high defences with no HP, the natural solution you're pushing the PCs towards is auto-damage effects. In 4e this means the party Wizard uses something like Burning Blood, and every minion on the battlefield dies automatically.

I've never bothered to search the 3.5 spell lists for similar wide-ranging autodamage effects, but I'm sure there are some out there.

[Acanous]

The biggest problem with 3.5 minions is Cloudkill, which has been addressed.
I make a habit of using 1/2 CR creatures as mooks. Easy to kill, plenty in number, and totally dependant on how you set up the encounter.

Do you want your party to feel epic and heroic? use 30 lv 1 Warriors in Full Plate. Mount them and give them shields to up the AC a bit higher. (You're looking at around 25+ AC after accounting for full plate, shield, high ground bonus, and a +1 from dex.)
Players WILL chew through them in a single round, but they LOOK formidable. The Warhorses can make trample attempts to spice things up and keep them on thier toes, but the mooks aren't going to show up the big bad.

Alternatively, if you want the mooks to be easy to kill, but a serious threat-

Give them a couple key items. Smoke bombs, Alchemist's fire, Caltrops, Oil. (One of the above for each minion)
Set the encounter up in an enemy base, or an area that the mooks know well- somewhere they've planned to be attacked in. Give them an avenue of escape; a tunnel, a system of trenches, secret doors, whatever you need.

Throw in a couple traps. Things like a poison dart trap, a pit trap, or even something simple like a tripwire.

Have the mooks do things like drop a smoke bomb on a square with a trap, so party members count as blind (With the appropriate save penalties)
Heck, throw down some caltrops just for fun in adjacent, non-smoky squares to make moving through the smoke look like a better option. Then when they hit the trip wire and fail a REF or fall prone... Uh oh, there's a minion right there ready to hit them (Twice, because of the AoO)

Tossing a vial of oil at a player is a ranged touch attack. Alchemist's fire is a DC 10 to hit the square you're throwing it at.
Pulled off well, the party will be scrambling- confused and panicing despite the fact that they're really only fighting 10 lv 1 mooks. They're likely to blow thier high-end abilities and spells fighting in smoke and putting out thier backpacks. Don't forget that Fire spooks horses, too. Make an appropriate morale check for the party's packmules and non-animal-companion animals.

Failure means they spook and run off in a random (D10) direction.

This is especially usefull if you're trying to wage a war of attrition on a high level party.
You know they've got a repitoire of "I win" spells, but you want the boss fight to be challenging without being a nigh-guerunteed TPK.

I think I've rambled quite a bit too much here >.>
Well, my point is- it's situational. Use the mooks for what you want the mooks used for. Are they fodder to glorify the adventurers? Are they a minor menace meant to delay the party so the mage in the back can finish his full-round-action summoning spell? Or are they supposed to be there to be a real and present danger, something that if handled improperly could make the difference in the fight?

Plan accoardingly.

[BobVosh]

Alternatively, leave them as "standard" encounters - full AC, full damage, etc - but give them minimum hit points. A "mook" fifth level dwarf fighter with 14 con (16 after racials) thus has 20 HP, as opposed to 42. Reduce exp granted accordingly.

This? This is sexy. Still makes cloudkill a problem. However maybe I'll pull from negative levels and make each point of con=5 damage. That way a level 10 minion isn't killed from 3 con damage. Instead it is 15 damage.
Maybe give 1 for lowest HD, 2 for 2nd lowest, etc. (PF so 1D6=1, 1D8=2, 1D10=3, 1D12=4). Just so there is a difference for the HD. Although they will mostly be D8/D10 as casters would be silly.

Can't believe I never thought of that. <3 Quietus.

@ Acanous: I want a large swarm of people. My party has the lowest ac at 25 normally. That is the sorcerer. After him the lowest ac is 32. So I need actual high level mobs to scare with their to-hit. I mean I can fireball em all to death or something, but the only threat being a caster is kinda boring. Low level normal mooks just don't fit what I'm going for.

[Mordokai]

Tucker kobolds? Only they are not there to kill, but scare the daylight out of your players.

[Acanous]

Hm. What level is your party at? I could run a few ideas by you to optimize your minions without overshadowing the boss.

[BobVosh]

Party is at 11 currently. 12 probably when they are fighting a demon with a fanatically loyal cult.

A Glabrezu and a Succubus will be the main things there. Lots of little culties beyond that.

[Acanous]

Well, why not throw in a duo of level 4 Rangers, Archery spec, with 10 Brilliant Energy Arrows each. They'll each be sporting a Mighty Bow (+2) and will be Prefferred Enemy (Whatever your party Fighter's race is- default Human)
With Weapon Focus (Longbow) and a few ranks in Hide- you can have them firing from eyelets set in secret passages on either side of the room.
Rapid Shot and a 5 foot step into total cover every round makes them very difficult to hit. The brilliant Energy will give them away and make some big flashy distractions. Party will move to deal with one when the other hits them in the back.
(Brilliant Energy Arrow fired from stealth at a prefferred enemy means his AC is pretty much useless. Only the Magic bonus from a Ring of Protection would apply)

Use the demon's ability to summon in order to refresh the troops on round 2. That'll keep their attentions away from the cultists- two of which are low level rogues (Possibly even a spellthief- that Magic Missile will still do 5D4+5)
Have one of the cultists be a lv 3 Cleric with a Wand of Cure Light Wounds (Mass) to ensure that any of your cultists who don't die outright get refreshed each round until the cleric is taken down.
Have a lv 5-6 Fighter in the mix, specialize him for Sunder. On round one, call attention to him by having the spellcaster you mentioned hit him with True Strike.

Some of the congregation (6-8) may be undead wearing robes to hide thier grizzly countenance- a certain feat in the Libris Mortis allows for undead to explode with negative energy upon destruction. These undead should try moving in as close to the party as possible and initiate a group grapple against the lowest STR charactor.

The rest of the congregation should really just be colourful meat. A couple mid level warriors thrown in to limit party maneuverability.

The Demons should be able to take care of the rest. Have the undead cultists begin at random positions near the entrance, seperate from the main bulk of the enemy mooks.

[BobVosh]

Exploding undead cultists...I like it. One thing: wands only go to 4th, not fifth level spells :P

However it is pathfinder, so a cleric with a phylactery of positive channel will throw 4D6 heals to everything within 20 feet easily replaces a CLW: mass spell. In fact it averages more healing. Although I get to have fun deciding to select out the undead or the PCs. Hmm. If I get the undead they go boom on the players. That could work...

Brilliant energy arrows are just the thing I need. 3 Full plate users. I never think of that enchant as it is rarely worthwhile on the player side of the screen(more use to that side).

[Oslecamo]

What the above poster said. Minions on 3.5 it's just a matter of picking up low CR monsters and using them on a smart way. Touch weapons, aid another, buffing up the bigger monsters, blocking line of sight, trough carrying tower shields of sight and complicating movement for the party just by standing there.

Also, shameless self-promotion for my mob template, to make lots of small enemies dangerous and resilient:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129179

[The Corinthian]

While minimum hp was a great idea, I tend to be more of the Acanous school of "minion" use. A minion is just a low-level NPC or monster with some ability to punch above its weight. (Trolls, monstrous vermin and just about anything with spell-like abilities works well.)

[Shardan]

Hows this for an idea. one monster with multiple low HP bodies.
AOE spells still only hit him once so it might burn off some of the bodies but leave others in the midst of it undamaged.
For example, the creature is 120(12HD) total HP in 12 bodies. Each body takes 10 damage to kill but single shots that over kill it don't affect the whole beast. A fireball that deals 48 damage will destroy 4 bodies and deal 8 damage to a fifth, but leave the remaining 7 untouched. but a single strike that deals 30 damage to one body will only destroy one body.

Or, alternatively, one creature that creates lesser creatures/constructs. Such as a huge shadow creature that creates small hp shadows that are of its HD for attack rolls/saves/resistances but just have a one HP each.