D&D 3.5, Now in Sci-Fi Flavor (WIP)

[imp_fireball]

Maybe UTD should be for operating tech devices and Coding

UMD is overpowered because it allows non-casters to become casters provided they have the right items.

UTD should only involve the operation of tech devices, but even it might face some complaint at being overpowered (granted, tech devices have some subtle differences from the others) - I'm fine with this. The same probably goes for use psionic device.

First, we should sketch everything down and then worry about balance later.

As for coding - like actual coding or just breaking in? If it's actual designing of a program, it'd be a craft check most likely. If you want to plan out the design of a larger program and get somebody else or a group of people to craft it, it'd be tech craft.

[Kiren]

UMD is overpowered because it allows non-casters to become casters provided they have the right items.

UTD should only involve the operation of tech devices, but even it might face some complaint at being overpowered (granted, tech devices have some subtle differences from the others) - I'm fine with this. The same probably goes for use psionic device.

First, we should sketch everything down and then worry about balance later.

As for coding - like actual coding or just breaking in? If it's actual designing of a program, it'd be a craft check most likely. If you want to plan out the design of a larger program and get somebody else or a group of people to craft it, it'd be tech craft.

Wouldn't craft be for physical things, not coding?

Edit: Eh, nevermind a Craft:Program would work.

[TabletopNuke]

Lets see...the stuff we've come up with is:
Craft (Computer Programming) (Int)
Knowledge (Technology) (Int)
Pilot (Landcraft?) (Dex or Wis)
Techcraft (Int)
Use Technological Device (Int)

Possibly Pilot (Aircraft) (Wis) and Pilot (Watercraft) (Wis)?

BTW D20 Modern uses Dex for Pilot, and it's divided up into different types of aircraft.

Maybe I should do some kind of hybrid between 3.5 skills and D20 Modern?


On an unrelated note, what should we do about creature types?

[Kiren]

Lets see...the stuff we've come up with is:
Craft (Computer Programming) (Int)
Knowledge (Technology) (Int)
Pilot (Landcraft?) (Dex or Wis)
Techcraft (Int)
Use Technological Device (Int)

Possibly Pilot (Aircraft) (Wis) and Pilot (Watercraft) (Wis)?

BTW D20 Modern uses Dex for Pilot, and it's divided up into different types of aircraft.

Maybe I should do some kind of hybrid between 3.5 skills and D20 Modern?


On an unrelated note, what should we do about creature types?

Let us consult the mighty homebrewer. Imp is the next best option.

[imp_fireball]

Leave creature types relatively the same, only add new creature types whenever you feel necessary (mostly just sub-types, sub-races, races and templates, I'd say, not necessarily over types like 'humanoid' or 'aberration').

Also, pilot being wisdom was a good idea on tabletop's part.

If you want, you could also houserule that Wis applies to reactive initiative and not Dex (initiative may be knowing how to react and to be able to come up with a quick reaction rather then to simply react quickly), thus diversifying the scores a little more. Dex would apply to initiative that is not reactive (ie. after a surprise round that you earned).

In campaigns where there is little to no spell casting, the mental scores may be a lot less useful.

As an alternative, Wis could be good for things like initiative, already obviously applying to will saves, Int probably applying to some new Int based extraordinary abilities (the ability to incorporate studied, planned tactics like squad take downs that could apply in specific situations), apart from more skill points and languages (I don't actually know about the latter; maybe a trait could offer more skill points by eliminating bonus languages received for high Int modifier).

Charisma would be the core conversational score - we could come up with some new uses for the charisma skills. Currently, diplomacy takes 5 minutes to take effect - but perhaps charisma could be used in combat or espionagge to do things like distract the enemy.

Obviously, all three mental scores would apply one by one to one psychic class/race with psi-likes or another.

[Kiren]

I disagree about Pilot, which should be a Dexterity based skill. To pilot a plane is to move the controls, thus Dex, reading a flightpath off of a map though is Wis. But piloting anything would be a movement, not a mental process.

Perhaps advanced aircraft may take penalties without training or a minimum wisdom score, eventually though with enough flight, considering you are still alive, the penalties will subside.

[imp_fireball]

To pilot a plane is to move the controls, thus Dex, reading a flightpath off of a map though is Wis. But piloting anything would be a movement, not a mental process.

Reading a flight path is Int. Actually piloting requires judgement, hence Wis.

[Kiren]

Reading a flight path is Int. Actually piloting requires judgement, hence Wis.

Piloting is a physical movement, working the controls, especially in dog fighting, the maneuvering of the plane. Hence Dex.

[imp_fireball]

Piloting is a physical movement, working the controls, especially in dog fighting, the maneuvering of the plane. Hence Dex.

Granted, much of piloting requires awareness of one's surroundings, hence Wis. We could argue this all week.

[Kiren]

Granted, much of piloting requires awareness of one's surroundings, hence Wis. We could argue this all week.

That would be a spot check. And all you need to know is where the ground is located.


Edit: Hence, Dex.

[imp_fireball]

That would be a spot check. And all you need to know is where the ground is located.


Edit: Hence, Dex.

I said orientation and moving accordingly, not noticing individual things.

Sometimes you need to know more then where the ground is. You have to know how hard to pull on the wheel, when to churn out the landing gears, in what way to fly so that you don't lose altitude and maintain maximum speed, etc.

[Kiren]

I said orientation and moving accordingly, not noticing individual things.

Sometimes you need to know more then where the ground is. You have to know how hard to pull on the wheel, when to churn out the landing gears, in what way to fly so that you don't lose altitude and maintain maximum speed, etc.

Precise movement of controls, how hard to pull the wheel, those are all precise movements, hence Dex.

Edit: This is going to go on and on, whatever Tabletop decides goes in goes in anyway.

[TabletopNuke]

Leave creature types relatively the same, only add new creature types whenever you feel necessary (mostly just sub-types, sub-races, races and templates, I'd say, not necessarily over types like 'humanoid' or 'aberration').

Some creature types are going to be totally unsuitable for the setting (Dragons, maybe fey?), unless they got revamped somehow. Also the inhabitants of immaterial planes like Thoughspace might be deserving of their own creature type. They'll be creatures of pure energy, which I suppose means incorporeal subtype. I'm not sure what else goes into that.

In campaigns where there is little to no spell casting, the mental scores may be a lot less useful.

Very good point, Imp. There's still psionics present, but there are a lot of non-para characters. We'll definitely need to make more focus on mental ability scores.

As an alternative, Wis could be good for things like initiative, already obviously applying to will saves, Int probably applying to some new Int based extraordinary abilities (the ability to incorporate studied, planned tactics like squad take downs that could apply in specific situations), apart from more skill points and languages (I don't actually know about the latter; maybe a trait could offer more skill points by eliminating bonus languages received for high Int modifier).

Charisma would be the core conversational score - we could come up with some new uses for the charisma skills. Currently, diplomacy takes 5 minutes to take effect - but perhaps charisma could be used in combat or espionagge to do things like distract the enemy.

I do want to make Breakdown heavily focused on intrigue and espionage (kinda like Eberron?). Perhaps I should make more interaction-focused feats? I think I should definitely make "normal" PrCs with abilities focused on mental ability scores.

This is going to go on and on, whatever Tabletop decides goes in goes in anyway.

Great, all the pressure's on me, then. I've pondered combining ability scores for skills before (particularly Dex influence on preforming surgery). Any ideas how to do that?

[Zexion]

Great, all the pressure's on me, then. I've pondered combining ability scores for skills before (particularly Dex influence on preforming surgery). Any ideas how to do that?

Average it out with Int or Wis, or make a special bonus that requires a feat, or make it computerized.

Although, when you think about it, skill ranks dictate how much actual ability a character has, not Int. So Dexterity might be a good skill modifier...

[imp_fireball]

Perhaps I should make more interaction-focused feats? I think I should definitely make "normal" PrCs with abilities focused on mental ability scores.

Be careful not to take d20 modern's route of 'anything hollywood worthy = PRC' - which in effect lead to otherwise low level characters such as daredevils (a few useful tricks at most), bodyguards (high HD and protection based talents? This sort of thing needs a feat and nothing more), investigators (which really just combine two skills, sense motive and gather information) and simple paramedics (which really just elaborates on the heal skill more than necessary in accordance to what should be available at level one provided you have the right ranks) having their own specific designated PRC.

IMO, if you wanna emulate a bodyguard ie., you should only need to take one feat - further feats would supplement the role rather then be necessary for anything do able in reality.

(particularly Dex influence on preforming surgery

Some jobs require precision, but even clumsy individuals, with practice can develop the necessary precision to excel at such jobs. It's what I find with drumming - I am a clumsy guy (I don't even walk properly and I'm always hunched; my ass is out of alignment, I swear ), but I can be very precise on the drums. The same could probably go for surgery. It's reflected with skill ranks rather than Dex modifier, IMO. Making it un-doable untrained doesn't change much.

Kind of like learning to write - although writing tends to lead to certain habits that result in writing styles; of course, writing isn't a profession that might depend on saving a life.

So Dexterity might be a good skill modifier...

Or maybe Wis. Surgery depends a lot on improvisation and thinking fast rather than learned techniques (which falls more into the domain of prescriptional knowledge and such). Just like profession (a skill that uses Wis and involves running a business as your own boss) requires improvisation.

Personally, I think surgery should be an additional option of the heal skill - requiring a lot more time then simple first aid. Knowing about a creature's anatomy for surgery would be like knowing about the creature as if it were a monster in a dungeon and you are using an appropriate knowledge skill check to recognize it (that's how I'd run it currently - there's not much else to work with what 'you know' and 'don't know').

Here's a mechanic, though (since only knowledge: dungeoneering, knowledge: the planes and knowledge: local cover creatures to my own knowledge)

If nothing is covered by the knowledge skills, add up all of your modifiers in each skill and then get the average and use that skill (unless the knowledge skill is very obscure such as 'knowledge: forbidden lore'). If any knowledge skill has a penalty, use the highest penalty - ie. 3 Int = -4 penalty to all knowledge skills - if no skill is trained, then -4 check when recalling knowledge that doens't fall into any skill category - unless the penalty is meant to only apply to a specific knowledge skill; ie. a certain race (let's call them Xepho'ets) might have a penalty to knowledge (geography) checks when navigating due to having a natural inclination to directional miscalculations, because travel isn't as necessary for them and they tend to asexually produce their own foods in the right environs.

Perhaps I should make more interaction-focused feats?

Not necessarily feats, but options (available to everyone, provided they make an appropriate check). I prefer tactical feats myself (feats that usually allow up to 3 things you can do in certain circumstances), if feats at all.

They'll be creatures of pure energy

So... elementals (that's an over-type btw)?

how hard to pull the wheel,

Pulling on the wheel hard isn't physically hard. It's knowing how hard to pull on the wheel.

It's knowing how hard

It's knowing

knowing

[Kiren]

That's a win Imp, lol. ^^^

I made the surgery class because I played too much Trauma Center, the fact that I can remove a bullet from some guys heart and shock them back to life, (technically that shouldn't work when their heart stops.) in under a minute.

I am sure that is not the way to do it in real life, but I don't know a thing about the human body. (In DnD I guess, the straightforward streamlined way is usually better then the otherwise long procedure.)

Perhaps take half the skill bonus from one ability and half from another ability.

Surgery
A Dex/Wis skill.

Pilot
A Dex/Wis skill (or Dex/Int, not sure)

Or this may not work, I haven't really played a DnD game in quite a while.

[IcarusWings]

How about having a minimum Dex requirement, and if you're below that then you take penalties.

So using Pilot as the example, what seperates a great pilot from a good one is Wis, what seperates a good pilot from a terrible one would be either Wis or Dex.

[Ashtagon]

For my homebrew, I have Pilot (covers vehicles that move in 3d), Drive (covers vehicles that move in 2d), and Helmsman (covers vehicles that require large crews). Both are Dex-based skills, but a feat (Zen Driving) allows you to use Wisdom instead, as well as giving a few extra options.

(Aside: Note too sure Dex works for Helmsman).

I'm also toying with the idea of specialising the skill. Basically, each is divided into a number of sub-categories (eg. helicopters, light aircraft, heavy aircraft, submersibles). You get one category free with your first skill rank, then purchasing additional categories costs 2 skill points. Vehicles outside a known category suffer a -4 penalty on skill checks.

[imp_fireball]

I'm also toying with the idea of specialising the skill. Basically, each is divided into a number of sub-categories (eg. helicopters, light aircraft, heavy aircraft, submersibles). You get one category free with your first skill rank, then purchasing additional categories costs 2 skill points. Vehicles outside a known category suffer a -4 penalty on skill checks.

Alternatively, some vehicles have a minimum number of ranks before you 'familiarize'. Not familiarizing means take a -4 penalty (or -5, like an unfamiliar mount).

[Kiren]

For my homebrew, I have Pilot (covers vehicles that move in 3d), Drive (covers vehicles that move in 2d), and Helmsman (covers vehicles that require large crews). Both are Dex-based skills, but a feat (Zen Driving) allows you to use Wisdom instead, as well as giving a few extra options.

(Aside: Note too sure Dex works for Helmsman).

I'm also toying with the idea of specialising the skill. Basically, each is divided into a number of sub-categories (eg. helicopters, light aircraft, heavy aircraft, submersibles). You get one category free with your first skill rank, then purchasing additional categories costs 2 skill points. Vehicles outside a known category suffer a -4 penalty on skill checks.

For Helmsman, If a vehicle requires a large crew, but has a defined driver to control the movement of the vessel, would that be a Helmsman check or a Pilot check?

[Ashtagon]

For Helmsman, If a vehicle requires a large crew, but has a defined driver to control the movement of the vessel, would that be a Helmsman check or a Pilot check?

That would be Helmsman. This is an early draft of the basic sub-divisions. The division is deliberately fuzzy, but if a vehicle has crewstations physically separate from the commander, that's a sure sign it's a Helmsman job.

Alternatively, some vehicles have a minimum number of ranks before you 'familiarize'. Not familiarizing means take a -4 penalty (or -5, like an unfamiliar mount).

I briefly considered this. But almost every vehicle type can be used by commoners in real life. Starships are perhaps the primary exception. Any attempt to do this and maintain some semblance of realism would essentially be saying "you get everything except starships, mecha, and maybe one or two other oddballs at 1st level. You get the rest at 2nd or 3rd". At that point, it becomes a needless complication.

Spending skill points to branch out seems a reasonable compromise between giving everything very soon, and requiring a feat to branch out (as d20 Modern does).

ETA: There's probably a good argument for making Helmsman an Int-based skill. There's an equally good argument for dropping Helmsman entirely, and splitting it between Drive and Pilot. But I do feel the skills involved are sufficiently different to justify separating it out entirely.

[imp_fireball]

For Helmsman, If a vehicle requires a large crew, but has a defined driver to control the movement of the vessel, would that be a Helmsman check or a Pilot check?

Really, I'd just rule pilot (whatever class of craft) with the addition that the craft requires a crew. Modern, despite how much I don't prefer using it, did this pretty well.

But almost every vehicle type can be used by commoners in real life.

Familiarizing doesn't take skill points. Just a day's/week's/month's time to learn. It can be argued by the GM.

I guess when you first take pilot, you choose some familiarities and those vehicles count as '1 rank prerequisites' instead of the normal ranks prerequisites.
----

As for your skills on that page, astronavigation could be covered by knowledge (geography) - artist needs only an appropriate special use of profession. Streetwise is probably knowledge (local). I'd most likely just convert your vehicle operation stuff into pilot (land craft), pilot (spacecraft) and pilot (aircraft). Changing alchemy from a craft check doesn't make much sense.

The familiarizing system could make pilot apply even to simple vehicles such as bicycles. Animal propelled vehicles could require handle animal (that was a good idea). Balance for propulsion methods such as roller skating and skate boarding is what I initially agreed made sense too.

Demolitions could be converted into disable device - after all, if you know how to disable a device, you can set one up too. To actually make the device, it's either craft (trap making) or craft (explosive).

Disabling an electronic device may require Craft (electronic) skill.

Requires a few ranks in craft (electronics), although in my proposed system it'd just be Use Technological Device.

But the former works for things like blueprint drafting - in order to techcraft up a blueprint, you require a minimum modifier in knowledge (whatever applies) and/or craft (X), depending on the blueprint.

Computer Use: Using electronic devices, computer programming, computer security (making and breaking it), brain hacking by directly re-programming the brain (in conjunction with Knowledge (life sciences).

Use Technological Device, craft (program), and the right equipment. Sometimes brain hacking requires a psionic device, or sufficiently advanced tech (insert tv tropes link here).

Blue prints help because they can allow you to build an AI from scratch with the right craft check, when using the completed blueprint. Granted, this costs XP, money and time.

Concentration: I'm really not sure what to do with this skill.

Could be useful for brain hackers trying not to get killed when ie. they get disconnected while their cerebrum is still plugged. Also good for resisting mental exhaustion - a new effect for adventurers that perform so little physical activity that they are able to go without sleep for multiple days but will typically succumb to the mental.

Also, if you didn't realize, concentration is still used by psychics to regain psionic focus.

Decipher Script: How to create and break codes. This won't make an ancient long-lost language readable. It may, however, allow interpretation of symbols that are inherently meaningful for their imagery (rather than for their value as a part of an alphabet).

If you have enough time, you can discern alphabetical values and actual messages, provided you have enough reference points (you can reconstruct reference points via some other skill).

Also, sense motive helps put pieces together when you have little evidence to go from (although that mostly applies to social affairs since sense motive has a lot to do with empathy and reading people).

Succeeding at job interviews generally requires a Diplomacy skill check

Yah... not always. Some employers really like to look at the core value of an employee and employ even social deviants if they can prove to be of value, while firing the faces. Of course a lot of jobs aren't like that since the employer isn't always 'with the company' on everything (and just wants good people to work with).

You can't change someone's attitude by a Diplomacy check - this generally requires reflection on their part over a few days, based on their feeling about the earlier interactions (ie. GM fiat; don't roll).

If someone is behaving irrationally, it's up to negotiators to calm them down. This sort of thing usually needs to be done quickly. If you want to change someone's overall opinion about someone or something, then that probably requires a few days.

Streetwise is used instead of Diplomacy when trying to determine how to act

Very hard to say. Really, different cultures enforce different customs. Most of this would just be role played and the diplomacy would be a sort of 'fix it' function, as it already probably is in existing games.

Gamble: Skill at games of chance where there is an element of skill involved. This skill is of no use in genuine games of chance (such as lotteries and "one-arm bandit" machines). Playing against other people is an opposed Gamble check. When playing against "the house", the house is treated as a player with a very high skill bonus.

Clearly a profession check under my system.

Gather Information: You can use this skill to interview a person to gain information from them without them realizing they are giving you information. This is a common use of the skill by fairground fortune-tellers. Used this way, it is opposed by Sense Motive.

Makes sense.

Intimidation: Brainwashing by conventional methods uses this skill, as does torture and threats of torture. Also interrogation, intimidation. Trying to eprsuade someone to do something by threatening them (by revealing information or with-holding due payment, for example) uses Intimidation.

Actual torture doesn't require a skill. Knowledge of how to inflict the least life threatening but most painful torture (the only actual skill involved in torture besides having the stomach and malice for it) is probably a heal check or knowledge (nature; nature relating to biology, although that's probably too general).

Move Silently: How to walk silently. Opposed by Hearing checks in most cases.

You already said this fell under stealth. Ah well, I'd just keep it at hide/move silently.

Navigation: How to read a map, use a compass, astrolabe, star charts, street signs, ground terrain, ocean currents, etc, to figure out where you are and which direction you need to go to reach where you want to go. This single skill covers air, sea, and land navigation. If moving between planetary bodies, use Astronavigation.

Knowledge (geography) or knowledge (dungeoneering), for enclosed spaces with no reference points. Geography can include outer space.

Seduction: How to please someone in bed, how to make yourself sexually attractive in public places. I'm sure you can use your imagination to fill in the details.

Most wouldn't dump anything into this skill except for giggles. I'd rule that it's diplomacy or intimidate (if it's like a pseudo-raping ).

Swim: How to swim. Includes knowledge of using scuba gear. Heavy diving suits generally require an appropriate Armour Proficiency.

Knowledge of diving gear is just tech familiarity. Heavy diving suits only require armor proficiency if they offer an armor bonus to AC - otherwise, it's just heavy equipment (possible armor check penalty despite no AC).

Treat Injury: Diagnosis, esoteric medicine, first aid, physician, physiology, and surgery. The focus here is on keeping someone alive and in good health. Knowledge (life sciences) focuses more on biochemistry and bioengineering, and is of no use in a medical situation. This skill can also be used to determine the approximate time and cause of death (pathology).

Heal

Stealth: The art of not being noticed. This skill makes it hard for you to be noticed with regard to those direct senses that you possess. For most humans, this generally means hiding themselves from detection by sight or hearing, but for a creature that had some kind of tremor sense ability, they would be able to make themselves stealthy with regard to that sense. Conversely, a human who had lost his sense of hearing or sight would have no ability to hide himself with regard to that sense, as he would no longer have any ability to judge how much noise he made, or how visible he would be.

Hiding from a telepathic entity with something like mind-sight, or the lesser light protoss ability (pin point any creature with listen check; they automatically feel minds in range) is a bluff check. Hiding from creatures that have other means of detection requires knowledge of such a creature (just a general knowledge that creatures can do this and their limitations) and a statement by the player (ie. "I'll move carefully to avoid alerting tremor sense."). Also includes things like masking yourself from a creature's scent ability.

I'd also rule move silently and hide as normal. Concealing tracks requires a survival check - because you know what makes tracks, you know how to hide them too.

Granted, this method is tough on the players, but creatures that have those means of sensing are usually of a higher CR regardless. Also the bluff DC to avoid telepathic reading is quite high (check out the epic bluff uses; namely, 'conceal surface thoughts'). Alternatively, you could use a zen double think technique (takes wisdom to have control over the emotions and deny thoughts from surfacing; or to craft a fake personality) which would be a feat or some other incorporated ability.

There's probably a good argument for making Helmsman an Int-based skill.

If anything, wisdom. It involves making sound decisions rather then recollection of facts. There isn't really a textbook about being a good helmsman.

[Ashtagon]

No need for the line-by-line analysis of every skill I wrote in that old post. I mainly linked it for the subsections of Pilot/Drive/Helmsman. The rest of it, I'm not really married to, and even those three could probably do with some revision. I think I've probably changed a few points on the list already on my main working copy.

But to pick some points anyway...

Astronavigation I folded into K/physical sciences, and Navigation into K/geography.

Diplomacy: What I intended was that you can't change their base underlying attitude. You might temporarily improve things enough to defuse a fight, but it takes a change in the underlying circumstances (role-playing and story-based changes) to affect the underlying situation. No more diplomancers casually charming the orc minions, basically.

Treat Injury: D&D calls it Heal. d20m calls it Treat Injury. I prefer to call it Treat Injury because that way it is automatically disambiguated from the heal spell. I feel it will help if every unique name applies only to a single concept.

Intimidation (for torture): Knowing how to inflict pain can logically be assigned to Treat Injury. But this is more than just pain. It's about effective interrogation techniques as well, and ensuring the answers actually contain a kernal of truth, rather than merely being anything vaguely plausible to make the pain stop.

Swim: Even without an armour proficiency, you can still use a heavy diving suit. The Armour Proficiency would simply let you avoid the usual penalties for wearing heavy armour. Similarly, scuba gear could probably be treated as light armour.

[imp_fireball]

No need for the line-by-line analysis of every skill I wrote in that old post.

Er... sorry. I did it for tabletop's sake though (just to eliminate confusion, etc.).

----
Maybe scuba gear should have minimum swim rank requirements instead (that way, you don't need an entire feat). That is, if you don't wanna use my familiarity concept.

Note that swim also covers such crazy things as shallow diving, so I think it's plausible for dive gear.

My familiarity states that you probably need at least a week of practice with the gear to know how to use it proficiently, maybe.

If players want to gain familiarity at the start of an adventure and the GM says no, they could always arrange to sacrifice a small amount of XP for it (in order to say they knew how to use it all along).

Knowledge (geography) or knowledge (dungeoneering), for enclosed spaces with no reference points. Geography can include outer space.

Also, dwarven stone cunning allows dwarves to use knowledge (geography) to navigate through enclosed spaces, provided they are made of stone.

[Ashtagon]

Maybe scuba gear should have minimum swim rank requirements instead (that way, you don't need an entire feat). That is, if you don't wanna use my familiarity concept.

Again, I don't really see this as an issue. I see scuba gear as requiring Armour proficiency (light). Most front-line combat classes will have that anyway. For those classes that don't, the only drawback is that it will impose a penalty on skill use (including Swim, of course) while it is being worn. But the special features of the equipment (breathing underwater) will function regardless. And as long as you have your source of air, you can move around using whatever Swim skill you have.

[imp_fireball]

Well it just seems a bit awkward to require armor proficiency.

Maybe, as an alternative (if they don't have the proficiency), one could spend XP to familiarize themselves, or select scuba gear as their beginning familiarity.

[TabletopNuke]

Be careful not to take d20 modern's route of 'anything hollywood worthy = PRC' - which in effect lead to otherwise low level characters such as daredevils (a few useful tricks at most), bodyguards (high HD and protection based talents? This sort of thing needs a feat and nothing more).

Thanks for the tip. I have never played D20 Modern, so I had no idea that was a problem. I guess I could make a set of feats for new uses of skills? Eberron has that Investigate feat. I could do a Surgery feat for Heal. Does that sound like a good way to go?

Some jobs require precision, but even clumsy individuals, with practice can develop the necessary precision to excel at such jobs. It's what I find with drumming - I am a clumsy guy (I don't even walk properly and I'm always hunched; my ass is out of alignment, I swear ), but I can be very precise on the drums. The same could probably go for surgery. It's reflected with skill ranks rather than Dex modifier, IMO. Making it un-doable untrained doesn't change much.

Hi5 for clumsy people with back problems! (I can't sit up straight and I've managed to injure myself in unimaginable ways. Ever cut yourself on a carrot? I have.)

Perhaps certain skills would have a penalty for low Dex? (apply your Dex mod if negative or something) I know having shaky hands would definitely be a problem for surgery. Also I think some Preform skills should be Dex rather than Cha (Drumming, string instruments, ect).

Personally, I think surgery should be an additional option of the heal skill - requiring a lot more time then simple first aid. Knowing about a creature's anatomy for surgery would be like knowing about the creature as if it were a monster in a dungeon and you are using an appropriate knowledge skill check to recognize it (that's how I'd run it currently - there's not much else to work with what 'you know' and 'don't know').

I think I agree on the surgery feat. Maybe preforming surgery without the feat imposes a massive (-20? -30?) penalty? I think using heal on an creature with unfamiliar anatomy should also have a penalty. What defines "familiar anatomy" is up for debate though.

Here's a mechanic, though (since only knowledge: dungeoneering, knowledge: the planes and knowledge: local cover creatures to my own knowledge)

If nothing is covered by the knowledge skills, add up all of your modifiers in each skill and then get the average and use that skill (unless the knowledge skill is very obscure such as 'knowledge: forbidden lore'). If any knowledge skill has a penalty, use the highest penalty - ie. 3 Int = -4 penalty to all knowledge skills - if no skill is trained, then -4 check when recalling knowledge that doens't fall into any skill category - unless the penalty is meant to only apply to a specific knowledge skill; ie. a certain race (let's call them Xepho'ets) might have a penalty to knowledge (geography) checks when navigating due to having a natural inclination to directional miscalculations, because travel isn't as necessary for them and they tend to asexually produce their own foods in the right environs.

That's kinda confusing. There's gotta be a way to streamline it. I'm all about streamlined, user-friendly rules that incompetent players can handle. (DMing hyperactive, emotionally unstable 15 year-olds was a terrible idea.)

So... elementals (that's an over-type btw)?

I actually meant creatures of mental energy, not the usual fire/water/air/ect energy, but that's actually a good idea for a starting point. I need a name for the incorporeal creatures of Thoughtspace. Maybe they are a subtype of elementals with the incorporeal and psionic subtypes? (Kinda like how certain groups of outsiders have their own subtype)

Maybe creature types should be divided up by physiology? One probably wouldn't expect more than a handful of creature types per world (perhaps even solar system/galaxy).

I made the surgery class because I played too much Trauma Center, the fact that I can remove a bullet from some guys heart and shock them back to life, (technically that shouldn't work when their heart stops.) in under a minute.

I am sure that is not the way to do it in real life, but I don't know a thing about the human body. (In DnD I guess, the straightforward streamlined way is usually better then the otherwise long procedure.)

Hahaha! Then that definitely won't work for my setting. This aims at realism, not theatrics.

Perhaps take half the skill bonus from one ability and half from another ability.

Surgery
A Dex/Wis skill.

Pilot
A Dex/Wis skill (or Dex/Int, not sure)

If I was going to make dual-ability skills, I'd definitely need a streamlined, easy to use system for it. Any ideas?

For my homebrew, I have Pilot (covers vehicles that move in 3d), Drive (covers vehicles that move in 2d), and Helmsman (covers vehicles that require large crews). Both are Dex-based skills, but a feat (Zen Driving) allows you to use Wisdom instead, as well as giving a few extra options.

I like how you've divided up the skills. I think I'll yoink that for my setting.

I'm also toying with the idea of specialising the skill. Basically, each is divided into a number of sub-categories (eg. helicopters, light aircraft, heavy aircraft, submersibles). You get one category free with your first skill rank, then purchasing additional categories costs 2 skill points. Vehicles outside a known category suffer a -4 penalty on skill checks.

I had actually been considering expanding skill synergy for sub-categories of skills. For example, if you know how to pilot one type of vehicle then you will probably have an advantage with other types of vehicles over someone who doesn't know anything about piloting. Another example is Preform. Someone who knows how to preform one kind of music will be able to use their knowledge of rhythm, pitch, ect when preforming less familiar types.

Thanks for all the skill explanation Imp. Perhaps Scuba gear proficiency requires a certain amount of ranks in Swim? Also Treat Injury seems like a deceptive name for the skill, since it's used to treat diseases as well. What about adding a Psychology skill? (I've know I've mentioned this before) It would definitely have skill synergy with Sense Motive. I'd definitely need to work out the sanity system to figure this one out, though.

[Kiren]

I will try to get working in a new version of the surgery skill, realistic yet streamlined!

[imp_fireball]

I know having shaky hands would definitely be a problem for surgery.

Sounds like parkinson's rather then simply low Dex.

That's kinda confusing. There's gotta be a way to streamline it.

Meh, it's mostly for GMs that want to run really deep games where knowledge checks should cover everything information based. You can include an 'advanced rules' section (and put it there) for the less incompetent as well as a streamlined edition if you wish. That's what I suggest anyway.

[Kiren]

For familiarity of Anatomy, like a few hours of anatomical study, whether its an autopsy or more devious, I don't want to get into.

Alternatively, if I kill enough imps, I will learn what their guts look like.

Studying an ooze is worthwhile, free loot and a snack. Yum, Jello. Ouch, acid.