Horizon Walker: planar terrains

[Killer Angel]

OK, I've got some problem with my Dm on the interpretation by RAW of some planar terrains abilities of the Horizon Walker; here's how my DM read the thing.

the description of terrain mastery says:
Planar terrain mastery functions just like terrain mastery.
and
Terrain mastery gives a horizon walker a bonus on checks involving a skill useful in that terrain, or some other appropriate benefit. (snip)
Horizon walkers take their terrain mastery with them wherever they go. They retain their terrain mastery bonuses on skill checks, attack rolls, and damage rolls whether they’re actually in the relevant terrain or not.


My DM says: You retain terrain mastey bonuses on skill, attack and damage wherever you go, because they don't need that kind of terrain to work.
For the same reason, you retain all the other benefits that don't need a specific terrain to work.
So, the immunity to fatigue of the desert, works in every enviroment, because the description says: "You are immune to fatigue". point.
The fire resistance 20 of the fiery (planar), works in every enviroment, because the entry says: "This kind of planar terrain mastery provides you with resistance to fire 20". point.

But for Shifting Planar, the description justifies the dimension door every 1d4/round, because: "You have the SA ability to use the ever-shifting nature of planes such as Limbo to travel faster. You instinctively anticipate shifts in the reality of the plane that bring you closer to your destination".

So, his reasoning is that, even if you take with you the shifting planar ability, you can use the dimension door only in Planes with the trait "morphic", because you cannot anticipate shifts in the reality, if the plane isn't shifting.
The same applies with "Aligned - planar"... you mimic the alignment of the plane you're in, and you're unaffected by spells that harm those of the opposite alignment (of the Plane you're in). But when you're in the Prime material, which is unaligned, you cannot mimic nothing.
His position is that many of the Planar terrains are useless, unless you effectively play a PlaneScape adventure.

On the Aligned Planar, here's a relevant link

A 265
from Simple Q&A D&D 3.5 (by RAW) XI

I can see the reasons behind my DM thought, and in the end i think I'm agreeing with him, but i wanted to hear your opinions by RAW (and any link to some official FAQ would help) and by RAI.

[Saph]

I'm afraid your DM is wrong.

This quote of yours is accurate as far as it goes:

"You have the SA ability to use the ever-shifting nature of planes such as Limbo to travel faster. You instinctively anticipate shifts in the reality of the plane that bring you closer to your destination . . ."

but the following bit states:

" . . . giving you the spell-like ability to use dimension door (as the spell cast at your character level) once every 1d4 rounds."

Note the lack of qualifiers in the sentence. If it meant "on a shifting plane" it would say "to use Dimension Door on a shifting plane", or "This ability only functions on a shifting plane", or something like that. It doesn't; it just says that you have the ability to use DD as a SLA.

This pretty much settles the argument, but for further evidence, look up and to the left to the part of the page under "Terrain Mastery" where it says:

Terrain Mastery

...

Horizon walkers take their terrain mastery with them wherever they go. They retain their terrain mastery bonuses on skill checks, attack rolls, and damage rolls whether they’re actually in the relevant terrain or not.

Planar Terrain Mastery
Planar terrain mastery functions just like terrain mastery, except that the horizon walker can choose one of the planar categories at each level. The horizon walker can take a non-planar terrain type instead, if she wishes.

Now, I suppose in theory you could still try to claim that a SLA isn't one of those bonuses, so shouldn't carry over, but at this point, you're really just being ridiculous (and that's not the interpretation your DM is arguing, anyway). The rules make it really obvious: you take your terrain mastery abilities with you wherever you go. End of story.

Furthermore - as if you need any more reasons not to use this rule - as your DM correctly notes, following his interpretation the Planar Terrains are basically useless, which in turn makes the Horizon Walker basically useless. And it's far from being an overpowered PrC in the first place: it's a slight improvement over a core melee class at best.

So I can see absolutely no reason to follow your DM's interpretation - neither RAW, RAI, nor balance supports it.

[ranagrande]

So I can see absolutely no reason to follow your DM's interpretation - neither RAW, RAI, nor balance supports it.

Rule 0 supports your DM though, if that's the way he wants it to work...

[Killer Angel]

So I can see absolutely no reason to follow your DM's interpretation - neither RAW, RAI, nor balance supports it.

His concern is exactly the balance. He says that dimension door "at will" is way too strong for an ability you can have since 11° level, and no other class have such a strong advantage (we're playing almost Core only).

I know, I know... casters is the answer. Every core full caster class is a LOT stronger than DD 1/d4 round, but our casters are decisely underoptimized, and in the end he thinks this would be unbalancing.
He conceded the use of DD 2 times / day. Meh, better than nothing...

[Saph]

His concern is exactly the balance. He says that dimension door "at will" is way too strong for an ability you can have since 11° level, and no other class have such a strong advantage (we're playing almost Core only).

Dimension Door at will is pretty much the only reason to play a Horizon Walker. The prerequisites are useless, and all of their other abilities are relatively weak and duplicated by various magic items. With Shifting as written, Horizon Walker is a decent and fun, but not amazing, PrC. Without it, it's a waste of time.

[Gametime]

His concern is exactly the balance. He says that dimension door "at will" is way too strong for an ability you can have since 11° level, and no other class have such a strong advantage (we're playing almost Core only).

I know, I know... casters is the answer. Every core full caster class is a LOT stronger than DD 1/d4 round, but our casters are decisely underoptimized, and in the end he thinks this would be unbalancing.
He conceded the use of DD 2 times / day. Meh, better than nothing...

Pretty much what Saph said. If, say, the Horizon Walker got all the class features of a Warblade plus DD every few rounds, then sure, I could see the argument for it being "overpowered" (although, honestly, even that wouldn't be unstoppable).

But the Horizon Walker gets pretty much NO other useful abilities. A fighter's bonus feats, long decried as some of the weakest replacements for class features, look like 9th level spells next to most of the terrain mastery "bonuses" the HW gets.

You can't look at an ability in a vacuum and call it overpowered. DD at will is only overpowered if the character it's on is capable of doing overpowered things with the constant teleportation. A melee class with few to no bonuses on actual melee does not meet that criterion.

[Curmudgeon]

My take is that, as Shifting (Planar) also uses the singular,

You instinctively anticipate shifts in the reality of the plane that bring you closer to your destination, giving you the spell-like ability to use dimension door (as the spell cast at your character level) once every 1d4 rounds.

you'll need to travel to a plane with the morphic trait to pick up that ability, but would (as usual for Terrain Mastery) take it with you thereafter. As a Horizon Walker magical (spell-like) ability, it doesn't require being on a particular plane any more than a Warlock's ever-ready Eldritch Blast does.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Most of the core clsses are unbalanced. Yes, no core class gets DD at-will, but they do get things like the ability to turn into a bear instead.
Non-core, Warlock gets it with an added bonus at-will, and the Swordsage gets DD 3x/per 2 rounds if he wants to.

[deuxhero]

Ask him why he won't let non-casters have nice things.

(And point out that weightless specifys it requires a specific tyoe of plane, shifting does not)

[Foryn Gilnith]

Remember that DD stuns (or dazes, I forget) you for a round after casting, and try to cast yourself as a mediocre melee combatant so it seems like you've sacrificed power for mobility. Of course, you probably have; but perception is most of what matters.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

OK, so to sum up, your DM is wrong by RAW, and he is wrong in his opinion that it is overpowered because it just isn't.

If he refuses to listen, it's his prerogative.

Now, if you'd like to make the Horizonwalker seem more reasonable, I can help you build a monstrously optimized caster that will make DD every 1d4 rounds seem pitiful by comparison.

[NEO|Phyte]

Remember that DD stuns (or dazes, I forget) you for a round after casting, and try to cast yourself as a mediocre melee combatant so it seems like you've sacrificed power for mobility. Of course, you probably have; but perception is most of what matters.

Actually, it just says you can't take any actions until your next turn, it doesn't go as far as stun/daze.

[olentu]

Remember that DD stuns (or dazes, I forget) you for a round after casting, and try to cast yourself as a mediocre melee combatant so it seems like you've sacrificed power for mobility. Of course, you probably have; but perception is most of what matters.

I think it is just a blanket may not take any other actions.

[quicker_comment]

Now, if you'd like to make the Horizonwalker seem more reasonable, I can help you build a monstrously optimized caster that will make DD every 1d4 rounds seem pitiful by comparison.

How exactly would a "monstrously optimized" caster be relevant to a group where all the casters are "decidedly underoptimized"?

[Foryn Gilnith]

I imagine the reaction would go somewhat like this:
omfg killer_angel is a MUNCHKIN! NERF NERF BAN SHUN SHUN SHUN

[Rainbownaga]

What's so good about dimension door? Unless you multi into that class that lets you full attack after DD'ing you've just given up a standard (or full round) action.

Sure, it may be useful to escape, but if you wanted to play a character that runs away from fights, you would have played a monk.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

How exactly would a "monstrously optimized" caster be relevant to a group where all the casters are "decidedly underoptimized"?

Could be enlightening.

[Saph]

What's so good about dimension door? Unless you multi into that class that lets you full attack after DD'ing you've just given up a standard (or full round) action.

You can take other people with you. That's the main use of Horizon Walker; as a kind of taxi service. You can blink the party into and out of just about anywhere. Very handy both for attack and for defence.

[Killer Angel]

Remember that DD stuns (or dazes, I forget) you for a round after casting, and try to cast yourself as a mediocre melee combatant so it seems like you've sacrificed power for mobility. Of course, you probably have; but perception is most of what matters.

Yep, I've done it. But I can do AoO... it seems that a fighter with no action near some caster, is like a wolf in the sheeps' fence.

Most of the core clsses are unbalanced. Yes, no core class gets DD at-will, but they do get things like the ability to turn into a bear instead.

Ask him why he won't let non-casters have nice things.
(And point out that weightless specifys it requires a specific tyoe of plane, shifting does not)

OK, so to sum up, your DM is wrong by RAW, and he is wrong in his opinion that it is overpowered because it just isn't.
If he refuses to listen, it's his prerogative.
Now, if you'd like to make the Horizonwalker seem more reasonable, I can help you build a monstrously optimized caster that will make DD every 1d4 rounds seem pitiful by comparison.

My DM is a good DM, and he knows the rules better than many of us... usually. I can see his reasoning, and the fear to have someone able to use a hit and run tactic, bringing with me sneak attackers or other meleers. Hell, once in a lifetime the meleers could play on par with the pcs casters.
Anyway, it will be a relatively short campaign, and i don't see any good entering in power escalation with him.
Pharaoh's, thanks for the offer, but I can play a wizard (or a bearish druid) next time, now i keep running with my Walker.

I was only curious if his position had some RAW-RAI justification. It seems not.

[FMArthur]

Could be enlightening a disruptive and pointless gesture.

Fixed that for you. There is no message in doing that besides "I'm a jerk, look at me".

There's nothing you can do beyond explain that there isn't much you can do with a free Dimension Door. If your DM is still adamant, you can try and work with the limitations, abandon the class, or get into a shouting match over what you tried to pull as revenge for not getting your way.

[Skorj]

HW/DD is one of very few ways a core melee can even get a swing at a mage. I just can't for the life of me see why people feel the need to nerf melee, unles it's an extremely low magic campaign and this ability is just "too magical" thematically.

CMage gives mages a simple feat to teleport a short distance every round as a standard action, by merely having an uncast teleport spell. Melee has to spend 6 levels of an otherwise mediocre PrC just to get an ability 40% as good. That's 3.5 for you.

[Myrmex]

HW/DD is one of very few ways a core melee can even get a swing at a mage. I just can't for the life of me see why people feel the need to nerf melee, unles it's an extremely low magic campaign and this ability is just "too magical" thematically.

Even then, after you teleport, you are unable to take any actions.

[Coidzor]

I can see his reasoning, and the fear to have someone able to use a hit and run tactic, bringing with me sneak attackers or other meleers. Hell, once in a lifetime the meleers could play on par with the pcs casters.
Anyway, it will be a relatively short campaign, and i don't see any good entering in power escalation with him.

Hell, if it's a short campaign he has even less reason to be worried about power escalation or long-term balance issues, because it won't last and will end quickly compared to, well, a real campaign.