3.5 Dexterity Feat Question

[sleepydwarf]

Hi,

Firstly, thanks for taking the time to read this post and definately thank you in advance for any assistance you can offer.

As the group I am with are starting a new campaign this weekend, I need to make a new character and I have been talked into creating a full caster character. As I have never taken a caster class before, this is goin to be a fun experience for me, or a very short lived character

My question is this, I know that weapon finese lets me use dex on attack rolls instead of strength, but is there a feat that allows me to then use the dex bonus on the damage instead of strength. the main reason I ask is that I have ended up with an 8 in strength, so at 2 level, strength on attacks and damage is really bad for me. I know as a caster, I shouldnt be fighting and trying to do damage with weapons, but I also know my DM, as a magic user I will be targeted and need to be able to defend myself.

In case it matters, the character is a gnome wizard, basically any book is allowed for feats but only core classes and races allowed.

Thanks again

Sleepydwarf

[jokey665]

Shadow Blade, I believe it's called, from Tome of Battle. You get dex to melee damage as long as you're in a Shadow Hand stance and wielding one of the Shadow Hand weapons. It's the only way I know of to get dex to damage.

[NEO|Phyte]

There isn't a feat that REPLACES str with dex for damage, but there IS one that ADDS dex, though it requires either 2 feats or a level in swordsage to meet its requirements, and it's with a limited selection of weapons. Name is Shadow Blade, and it can be found in the Tome of Battle.

[Krazddndfreek]

That is of course in addition to strength. But you do need to be in a shadow hand stance and be wielding one of its weapons like he said. It also counts as weapon finesse for the purposes of qualifying for feats and such.

[Thurbane]

According to X stat to Y bonus, there's quite a few ways, but many of them are in issues of Dragon, if that's a problem.

[Glimbur]

As a wizard, neither Weapon Finesse nor Shadow Blade are worth your feats. At low levels, stay in the back, throw maybe a spell per encounter (Sleep is nice at low levels, Grease has synergy with rogues, Enlarge Person is worth considering), and plink away with a crossbow. Use skills out of combat, like Decipher Script if you can afford it, to be more useful. Once you get higher level spells you can start being more powerful, but the first couple of levels are rough.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

For your reading pleasure, may I recommend to you Treantmonk's guide to wizardry! This is one of the better (and more recent) guides out there to playing arcane casters. A quick Google search will probably also net you his school by school analysis for arcane spells.

[Tyndmyr]

The only attacks you care about as a wizard are touch attacks. Thus, strength or dex to damage is pretty much irrelevant. The only time you'll ever actually hit someone is if you're polymorphed.

Save your feats for metamagic, item creation, or whatever. Heck, even Improved Init isn't bad. Going first is huge in staying alive.

[lsfreak]

Protect yourself with spells and your allies, not a sword. If you're swinging a sword, you're in range to be struck back, which is the last thing you want when you're rocking all of 10 hit points. Instead, you should be making sure enemies never even get to you by using things like Enlarge Person to make your allies stronger or Grease to knock enemies over. If they DO get to you, use Withdraw to get yourself in a position where you can't be attacked back easily (withdraw to behind an ally or into rough terrain where you can't be charged, for example).

[Glimbur]

Weapon Finesse isn't a total waste; there are Touch spells worth casting and WF lets you use Dex instead of Str to hit with them. There are better feats than Weapon Finesse though, especially since Touch AC tends to not increase nearly as quickly as regular AC so by mid levels touch attacks are fairly accurate anyway.

[sleepydwarf]

Thanks for the quick replies everyone.

I will need to check with the DM if he will allow the feats from Dragon Magazine or not.

If not, then I guess the best bet would be the shadowblade feat. I know that a magic user should never be close enough to the enemy to be able to hit them with a sword, but our DM plays smart bad guys, so a magic user is often a primary target for the bad guys. which is also why he is granting me 2 additional feats, as long as I can incorporate learning/developing them into my back story, hence thinking on developing teh feats to protect myself, all though I could use them on either crafting or metamagic feats

My plan is heavy use of Grease and Enlarge Person to protect me and the party at the start and then develop according to the guides that I find online.

Sleepydwarf.

[Dimers]

Protect yourself with spells and your allies, not a sword.

Spells, allies, and if your campaign starts high enough level to buy it, a mithral light shield, which has no armor check penalty and no arcane spell failure. I too recommend against using feats to improve your ability to attack in melee. To make a better ranged attacker (which has more use for the character later on, making ranged touch attacks), take Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. To defend yourself until your party can rescue you, Dodge and Mobility can be useful. So can Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Broadblade Short Sword (Complete Adventurer, p. 117), which gives an extra +2 dodge AC whenever you fight defensively. To get one extra 2nd-level spell to throw and a useful skill bonus besides, take Precocious Apprentice (Complete Arcane, p. 181) ... depending on which spell you choose, that could do much more to save your bacon than standard feats.

[Foryn Gilnith]

our DM plays smart bad guys, so a magic user is often a primary target for the bad guys.

And what do you think our DMs do? You can't beat them at their own game and still be a mage. Either A) get your front-liners to shape up in guarding you, or B) misdirect. Wear a black bodysuit, maybe thistledown padded or a Twilight Mithral Shirt; and skulk around with a dagger in hand. They'll think you're a rogue and go for the healer first. Ruse disappears with the first spell, but that one round can make all the difference. If you want to use cheese you could pick up Abrupt Jaunt Conjurer from PHB2.

[lsfreak]

And what do you think our DMs do? You can't beat them at their own game and still be a mage. Either A) get your front-liners to shape up in guarding you, or B) misdirect. Wear a black bodysuit, maybe thistledown padded or a Twilight Mithral Shirt; and skulk around with a dagger in hand. They'll think you're a rogue and go for the healer first. Ruse disappears with the first spell, but that one round can make all the difference. If you want to use cheese you could pick up Abrupt Jaunt Conjurer from PHB2.

Yea, that's one of the biggest things - don't LOOK like a caster. Hide your spellbook. Keep your spell components pouch well-concealed without hindering your ability to grab something from it, and keep the components for the first spell you're likely to want to cast in hand at all times.

Wear a leather shirt, a bow, a longsword, and keep a trained dog with you, and you're the druid or ranger. Have the fighter wear robes overtop his armor and carry around a big book.

[sleepydwarf]

Ok, I didnt mean anything bad about other DM's with my comment that mine pays smart bad guys, I do realise that most DM's do that. I ment it more that he is one of the sensible ones that do play them right rather than one of the rarer ones that seem to treat bad guys as dumb and as a way of giving the payers things (loot).

Over the past 2 weeks of creating different possible characters, I didnt even think on the most basic way of defending him.......simple disguise.

Foryn, I especially like your description of the rogue and his outfit, so I think I now have the outfit for my little Gnome Wizard

As for the idea of surviving with a sword, I think you guys are right, I need to stop thinking like a fighter or a rogue (my usual class) and read more of the online guides for wizards that I can find. Especially with regards to the additional round or two of spells I can potentially get off before they realise I am the primary mage.

[Saintheart]

Or invest in invisibility potions. Can't see you, in theory, can't hit you easily. Then buff your allies. If it ain't dealing damage direct on an enemy, it ain't gonna make you visible. Even summoning monsters doesn't break the spell.

[Curmudgeon]

Or invest in invisibility potions.

This is a Wizard. They don't need no steenking potions!

But yeah, I like the idea of being a covert spellcaster. If you invest in Sleight of Hand you can conceal your spellcasting; see Races of Stone page 133. Then mime drinking a potion as you turn invisible. Proceed to buff your allies, alter the terrain with things like Grease, and summon monsters into positions that will give your Rogue flanking support.

[sleepydwarf]

So basically, instead of trying to find a way of surviving by combat, be a sneaky underhanded little mongrel and survive that way

That I can definately do

which gives me an additional 2 feats at creation to play with

[Acanous]

Specialize in Polymorph and go Master Specialist at lv 4.

then your STR will be whatever you want it to be >.>

Also the ability to heal yourself to full (Or more than full) whenever you've got a round comes in handy.

I'm still trying to work out how "Polymorph any object" can be used as a temporary, penaltyless Ressurrect.
\First few levels are still rough, tho. You just get more power sooner if you go Mspec than if you stay Wiz.

[GolemsVoice]

I think Player's Handbook 2 has a feat called Crossbow Sniper. It increases your sneak-attack range, and also allows you to add your Dexterity bonus to damage rolls, if I remember correctly. I don't have the book with me, so I could be wrong. The name is Crossbow Sniper, however.

[Myrmex]

The only attacks you care about as a wizard are touch attacks. Thus, strength or dex to damage is pretty much irrelevant. The only time you'll ever actually hit someone is if you're polymorphed.

Only if your DM is actually a kitten that lies on his back and purrs while you play D&D with yourself.

Otherwise, you're going to find yourself in situations where being small and having 8 strength is a bummer.


I recommend preparing some spells from the spell compendium, like corrosive grasp or fist of stone, that turns your body part into something dangerous that can make attacks. Just being able to threaten is worthwhile, since that means you at least get an attempt to stop a grapple or someone moving past you.

[ghashxx]

Some other great resources online include this nifty spell finder , and this very simple mage setup, The logicninja's guide to being batman is also pretty fantastic.

[Tyndmyr]

Only if your DM is actually a kitten that lies on his back and purrs while you play D&D with yourself.

Otherwise, you're going to find yourself in situations where being small and having 8 strength is a bummer.

I presume you're referring mainly to grapple checks. Flight, freedom of movement, invisibility, mirror image are my favorite means of avoiding these. If they cant detect me or get to me, grapple is irrelevant. Having a few more points of strength will not appreciably reduce the danger of being grappled, but not being accessible will.

I recommend preparing some spells from the spell compendium, like corrosive grasp or fist of stone, that turns your body part into something dangerous that can make attacks. Just being able to threaten is worthwhile, since that means you at least get an attempt to stop a grapple or someone moving past you.

Those are gish spells, or good buffs for the monk or fighter of your group. As a pure caster, threatening is pretty useless. What, you get an AoO against people moving past you? Who cares? You probably wont hit anyhow, so you'd have been much better off casting something useful. You wont be able to stop a dedicated grappler head to head by boosting stats or trying to out-melee him. You beat him by not being grabbable at all.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Only if your DM is actually a kitten that lies on his back and purrs while you play D&D with yourself.

Otherwise, you're going to find yourself in situations where being small and having 8 strength is a bummer.


I recommend preparing some spells from the spell compendium, like corrosive grasp or fist of stone, that turns your body part into something dangerous that can make attacks. Just being able to threaten is worthwhile, since that means you at least get an attempt to stop a grapple or someone moving past you.

Level 5. Wiz with medium size, 12 Str, grapples at +3. Human Warrior with 16 str from the elite array and imp grapple(the absolute minimum someone trying grappling will have) grapples at +12. You have an 86% chance of losing. It only gets worse as you level. I don't think the 4 points of Str were worth it.

[Tyndmyr]

Also, look at standard, vanilla SRD mobs and their grapple modifiers. They're just as dangerous, if not more so, than that fighter. We're talking random mobs like bears, not the truly lethal grapplers like illithids.

If you grapple with mobs like that, you may get lucky once, but you *will* lose and die in relatively short order. Grappled wizards are squishy.

The GM that lets wizards successfully grapple trained grapplers without being polymorphed, etc is the one that's going easy on the players.

[Ormagoden]

Although I understand that you are concerned with getting into combat as your DM plays "Smart" enemies.

I strongly suggest AGAINST taking any kind of combat related feat as a spell caster (This includes weapon finesse.)

Stay alive by moving. If bad guys are within 5ft of you you are doing something wrong. Keep moving! If you are REALLY worried about Close combat summon a creature to interpose (preferably one that grapples well eh?). Ideally you should have an exit strategy for any situation. Realistically you won't be able to have lots of exit strategies until later on in your character's career.

just my 2cp...

an additional 2cp edit.
Purchase a mithral buckler as soon as possible.

[Person_Man]

Updated X stat to Y bonus thread. Here's the Dexterity section:

Dexterity

Spoiler

Show

{table=head]Name | Type | Book |

Page #

|

Edition

| Bonus | Notes
Illumian (Uurhuun) | Race | Races of Destiny |

54

|

3.5

| Overcome SR | -
Illumian (Uurkrau) | Race | Races of Destiny |

54

|

3.5

| Bonus Spells | -
Muckdweller | Race | Serpent Kingdoms |

71

|

3.5

| Swim checks | -
Champion of C.L. 2 | PrC | Races of the Wild |

113

|

3.5

| Damage | Limited weapons
Corsair 9 | PrC | Dragon #321 |

86

|

3.5

| Damage | Replaces Str
Fighter | Alt Class Feature | Dragon #310 |

?

|

3.5

| Damage | Ranged, Replaces Str
Fighter 1 | Alt Class Feature | Drow of the Underdark |

58

|

3.5

| Damage | vs. Flat Footed Foe
Perfected One | Epic PrC | Dragons #297 |

56

|

3.5

| Fort Saves | while unarmored
Agile Athlete | Feat | Races of the Wild |

148

|

3.5

| Jump and Climb | Replaces Str
Companion Guard Style | Feat | Dragon #315 |

?

|

3.5

| To-Hit | -
Crossbow Sniper | Feat | PHBII |

77

|

3.5

| Damage | 1/2, crossbows only
Dead Eye | Feat | Dragon Comp |

?

|

3.5

| Damage | (Errata here), Ranged within 30 ft only
Shadow Blade | Feat | Tome of Battle |

32

|

3.5

| Damage | Limited weapons
Tactile Trapsmith | Feat | Complete Adventurer |

112

|

3.5

| Disable Device and Search | Replaces Int
Weapon Finesse | Feat | PHB |

102

|

3.5

| To-Hit | Replaces Str, limited weapons
Boots of Agile Leaping | Equipment | Magic Item Comp |

76

|

3.5

| Jump | Replaces Str, Stand from Prone as Swift Action.
Fey-craft | Equipment | DMGII |

275

|

3.5

| To-Hit | Replaces Str, limited weapons
Fierce enchantment | Equipment | Arms & Equip Guide |

96

|

3.0

| Damage | Removes Dex AC bonus
Sword of Graceful Strikes | Equipment | Arms & Equip Guide |

120

|

3.0

| Damage | -
[/table]

I would also add investing in X to Y bonuses is often inefficient. For example, a Gnome Wizard has much better things to do with his actions then try to hit things with weapons. You should be casting a spell every round. If necessary, buy a wand or take a reserve feat.

[jiriku]

I agree with others; if you're starting from small size, an 8 strength, a d4 hit die, a poor base attack bonus, and wizard weapon proficiences, no combination of feats is ever going to enable you to defend yourself credibly by waving a weapon around. You'd need powerful magic to pull it off - which, coincidentally, you'll get for free without spending feats as you level up!

A nice safety net at lower levels: if your DM allows you to use the retraining rules in the back of the Player's Handbook II (and he should because they really improve the game for players), take the Toughness feat at 1st level - it will greatly increase your chance of surviving to 2nd level. Once you reach 6th level or so, retrain it to a useful metamagic or item creation feat, or to Improved Toughness if you still need hit points. If your DM doesn't allow retraining, I wouldn't do this, though, because while Toughness is a lifesaver at 1st level, it's hardly noticeable at higher levels.

Another option to consider at 1st level, again especially useful if your DM allows retraining, would be Skill Focus (Concentration) to help you cast defensively and concentrate on a spell if you're injured. If you're hard-pressed in melee, using Concentration to cast defensively will allow you to get off spells like color spray or sleep which can shut down your attackers completely. At higher levels, once your Concentration bonus is enough to auto-pass your defensive casting checks, you can retrain the feat to something else useful.

[Telonius]

I think the correct answer is supposed to be "Polymorph into some kind of templated dinosaur-monster and don't worry about it."

[Person_Man]

I think the correct answer is supposed to be "Polymorph into some kind of templated dinosaur-monster and don't worry about it."

He's second level. So Sleep, Grease, and Color Spray. When he hits 3rd level, he gets access to Alter Self, and he's set.