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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Banning Core. Which classes?

    Me I'd go for
    Rogue=Factotum
    Wizard=Wu-Jen, Artificer
    Sorcerer=Psion, Wilder, Beguiler, Warmage, Warlock
    Cleric=Shugenja
    Fighter=Warblade, Knight
    Paladin=Crusader
    Monk=Unarmed Swordsage
    Druid=Totemist
    Bard=Beguiler
    Ranger=Not Sure (Swordsage/Totemist?)
    Barbarian=Not Sure
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    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    I'm not entirely sure what you're looking for here.

    But obviously Scouts would replace Rangers.

    But, still, there are certainly enough non-core classes to fill all the roles the core classes fill, plus some. Banning the core classes won't break the game (it may in fact help balance it), but I'd be wary of doing it. If only because some people can't handle not playing a character with "Rogue" in the class name, even if they can play a Ninja or Spellthief and just pretend it's a Rogue.
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Okay, I'm not sure what your motivation for banning core is, but if it is "balance" you may want to re-think allowing the artificer (considering it's a top tier class and you're banning the rest of the top tier).
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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    I almost did this, but the group had coniption fits over it. So instead, I didn't run the game >:b

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    Wings of Peace's Avatar

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Bard = Beguiler?

    What about Dragonfire Inspiration? I mean I'm sure there's way to do party support as a Beguiler too but c'mon the bard definitely has it's niche.
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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Okay, I'm not sure what your motivation for banning core is, but if it is "balance" you may want to re-think allowing the artificer (considering it's a top tier class and you're banning the rest of the top tier).
    Erudite (spells to power variant) and Ardent are still in there.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    I'm currently in a game that was originally described as this. It was more 'you can't stay any of these – you can use them to jump off into another class', and that seems to have largely become 'you can't play a pure druid'.

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    Optimystik's Avatar

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    What's wrong with Barbarians? Can't you just leave in the parts of core that are fine?

    If you must replace Barbarian, use Totemist there and replace Druid with Spirit Shaman instead.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    It's mostly a thought exersize. I'm just looking for alternative ways to portray concepts. My title may have been misleading.
    Frog in the playground.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Or you just leave core unchanged and ask everyone to play nice.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frog Dragon View Post
    It's mostly a thought exersize. I'm just looking for alternative ways to portray concepts.
    Leaving core intact and playing by gentlemens' agreements is standard. It's "boring" (no, not really). The purpose of this is to find a different way; not necessarily a better way.

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    Telonius's Avatar

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Barbarian - really angry Swordsage.

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    hamishspence's Avatar

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Given the reduced armour, glory-hungry tendencies, a throwing specialist option, the high hit dice- would Warblade fit closer to some Barbarian archetypes, than it would to the the Fighter?
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BooNL's Avatar

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Barbarian = awakened Dire Badger Totemists?


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    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Rogue = Factotum or Ninja (depending on focus of Rogue)
    Wizard = Wu-Jen
    Sorcerer = Warlock
    Cleric = Favored Soul
    Fighter = Warblade
    Paladin = Crusader
    Monk = Swordsage
    Druid = Spirit Shaman
    Bard = Beguiler or Marshal (depending on focus of Bard)
    Ranger = Scout
    Barbarian = Totemist

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    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    Bard = Beguiler?
    You obviously missed the memo: Bards are awesome. Beguilers have scabies.

    Seriously, though, I would say that, if you don't want some of the core classes in there, start suggesting things to players. "You want to play a ranger? Have you taken a look at the Scout?"
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    Orc in the Playground
     
    Nate the Snake's Avatar

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Rogue -> Factotum (skill monkey), ninja (stealth), spellthief (niche)
    Wizard -> Wu jen or psion (general), warmage/beguiler/dread necromancer (specialist), shugenja (replaces wizard in some OA settings)
    Sorcerer -> Psion/wilder (general innate magic), warlock and dragonfire adept (magical heritage)
    Cleric -> Favored soul (general), shugenja (niche), dragon shaman (support)
    Fighter -> Warblade, knight
    Paladin -> Crusader
    Monk -> Unarmed Swordsage, psychic warrior
    Druid -> Spirit shaman (nature-based caster), totemist (shapeshifting)
    Bard -> Factotum (jack of all trades), marshal (support), beguiler (trickster), spellthief (magic dabbler)
    Ranger -> Scout
    Barbarian -> n/a

    Not much outside of core adequately replaces the barbarian, but pretty much any other core class concept can be approximated, duplicated, or done better with non-core base classes.

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    tyckspoon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nate the Snake View Post
    Not much outside of core adequately replaces the barbarian, but pretty much any other core class concept can be approximated, duplicated, or done better with non-core base classes.
    Depends on what you want from your Barbarian. The Rage mechanic is nigh-unique; being a Barbarian or doing a class feature swap for it is just about the only way simple way I know of to get it as a class ability, especially as a base class. The concept and general fighting style, however, is pretty easy to come by- want to be an aggressive combatant who soaks things with his ridiculously tough body instead of armor? Warblade, Stone Dragon/Tiger Claw/Iron Heart focus (Tome of Battle is crazy-adaptable for fluff, especially the Warblade.)

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    DragoonWraith's Avatar

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    I'd be tempted to just keep the Bard and Barbarian. They're harder to replace, I think, and with enough other books, quite solid anyway.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    (Tome of Battle is crazy-adaptable for fluff, especially the Warblade.)
    It's *annoying.* I keep coming up with concepts to throw at my PC's, and then realize that the best way to do it is another warblade

    If I were banning classes in an attempt for balance, I'd go:
    Melee:
    Warblade
    Crusader
    Swordsage
    Psychic Warrior
    Totemist

    Multirole:
    Incarnate
    Binder
    Dragonfire Adept
    Factotum

    Caster:
    Psion
    Shadowcaster (with a few quick fixes)
    Spirit Shaman

    From core, I'd probably keep bard, barbarian and rogue (probably with a little tinkering on the last two). I'd also allow swift hunter rangers. Turn trapfinding and 'turn undead' as feats, but turn undead wouldn't do anything but power devotion feats.

    Now, if the goal is to come up with non-core equivalents to the Core classes, that's different. Firstly because it'll keep everything unbalanced without tinkering with some classes, and secondly because some concepts are best filled with core classes (or at least use core classes as bases). However, here's the best I would do:
    Barbarian -> Warblade
    Bard -> Marshal (with tinkering)
    Cleric -> Spirit Shaman
    Druid -> Totemist
    Fighter -> Psychic Warrior
    Monk -> Swordsage (both variants)
    Paladin -> Crusader
    Ranger -> Scout
    Rogue -> Factotum, possibly Spelltheif
    Sorcerer -> Warlock (with tinkering) or Binder
    Wizard -> Psion
    Last edited by lsfreak; 2009-11-16 at 07:55 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #21
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    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    There is a class in Oriental Adventures with a 'rage' mechanic - I forget the name, though.

    It was a sort of Paladin/Barbarian mix as far as I remember. And, unfortunately, never released in 3.5, even though all the other OA classes were...

    Also a Shifter Swordsage/That One PrC That Focuses On Tiger Claw Or Whatever It Is Called makes an okayy barbarian replacement.

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  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    You probably mean Sohei with the Ki Frenzy thing. They're lawful only though.
    The Tiger Claw Prc you're thinking of would probably be Bloodclaw Master.
    Last edited by Frog Dragon; 2009-11-17 at 06:22 AM.
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    sonofzeal's Avatar

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Rogue=Factotum
    Wizard=Psion
    Sorcerer=Wilder
    Cleric=Favoured Soul
    Fighter=Psychic Warrior
    Paladin=Crusader
    Monk=Unarmed Swordsage
    Druid=Totemist
    Bard=Beguiler
    Ranger=Scout
    Barbarian=Warblade
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    Troll in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Lower-power setting replacements:

    Rogue = Factotum
    Wizard = Arcane Swordsage
    Sorcerer = Warmage or Binder
    Cleric = Healer or Incarnate with tweaked alignment reqs
    Fighter = Warblade
    Paladin = Crusader
    Monk = Unarmed Swordsage or Totemist
    Druid or Barbarian = Totemist
    Bard = Marshal
    Ranger = Scout

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    TheThan's Avatar

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    So, what book is this Totemist class i keep seeing in? i've never heard of it and it's attracted my interest.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    So, what book is this Totemist class i keep seeing in? i've never heard of it and it's attracted my interest.
    Magic of Incarnum. EDIT: As it shares the 'illiteracy' shtick with Barbarian, I'd recommend using it instead of Barb. Scout = Ranger, Factotum subs for Rogue.
    Last edited by Amphetryon; 2009-11-17 at 02:12 PM.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Wings of Peace's Avatar

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Indon View Post
    Lower-power setting replacements:

    Rogue = Factotum
    Wizard = Arcane Swordsage
    Sorcerer = Warmage or Binder
    Cleric = Healer or Incarnate with tweaked alignment reqs
    Fighter = Warblade
    Paladin = Crusader
    Monk = Unarmed Swordsage or Totemist
    Druid or Barbarian = Totemist
    Bard = Marshal
    Ranger = Scout
    How is an Arcane Swordsage low powered...?
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    How is an Arcane Swordsage low powered...?
    Doesn't get a familiar.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Mongoose87's Avatar

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    Barbarian - really angry Swordsage.
    Is he angry because he has the worst recovery mechanic?
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Wings of Peace's Avatar

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    Default Re: Banning Core. Which classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose87 View Post
    Is he angry because he has the worst recovery mechanic?
    Not once he takes Adaptive Style.
    Last edited by Wings of Peace; 2009-11-17 at 02:23 PM.
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