4e November Update: Serious Rebalancing

[Mando Knight]

No thread on this yet? Weird.

I checked up on the changes to the Monk, beyond taking away their enchantable fists and giving them Ki Focus, and I noticed several changes to its powers and several weapons:

1. There aren't any Weapon keyword powers in the preview material for the Monk. All of the powers previously previewed that were weapon powers are now implement powers.

2. Serious changes to Double weapons, at the least. All double weapons now list their secondary ends below the main head, and some have keyword and/or damage changes:

Stout: Added to all of the Double Weapons except the Double Sword. Lets you treat the weapon as a two-handed weapon rather than just a double weapon.

Double Scimitar: Gone. Dead. No more. Oops. I made this post looking at a character that had Eberron banned. Double Scimitar looks about the same, but with Stout. Still +2 1d6/1d6 off-hand defensive high-crit heavy blade.
Double Sword: Nerfed. No longer a Heavy Blade, and got demoted a die size. No longer strictly better than Rapier + Parry Dagger.
Double Axe: In return for Stout and not losing its damage dice, it no longer has the Defensive keyword.
Urgrosh: Spear head took a beating, in return for the Stout property and retaining the Defensive property. Lighter and 20 gp cheaper than the original version.

Personally, I like the Double Sword update, and I'm neutral about the other double weapons... Double Axe also makes a little more sense now, though. Not sure yet how I feel about the Monk changes, especially since there's no way for a Monk to qualify for two-weapon features using only his unarmed strikes now.

[FoE]

Where the hell are Double Weapons again? AV1?

[Mando Knight]

Where the hell are Double Weapons again? AV1?

AV1, with the exception of Double Scimitar, which is in the Eberron Player's Guide... which I skipped by mistake when writing the OP thanks to which character I used while writing the post.

[dsmiles]

I never really cared for double weapons...I prefered to wield a weapon in either hand...or a spiked chain as a double weapon. I think they should have left the double weapons behind in 3.5e, or better yet never invented them in 3.0e.

[Mando Knight]

I never really cared for double weapons...I prefered to wield a weapon in either hand...or a spiked chain as a double weapon. I think they should have left the double weapons behind in 3.5e, or better yet never invented them in 3.0e.

The problem with that is that The Phantom Menace was a new-ish movie when 3.0 came out. Guess who was the new "must-emulate" character?

[dsmiles]

I realize that this is all just a ploy to bring in the younger players to re-vitalize DnD, but maaaaaan...sometimes the commercialization (is that even a word?) of DnD makes me vomit.

[DSCrankshaw]

Lots of changes here, most of them good.

Hero of Faith now only applies to one hit, not the whole encounter.

Armor of Faith now applies for cloth armor only, not leather or hide.

Ritual Ring can't be used for item creation.

[Pramxnim]

Oh come on, is that all you guys have to say?

I mean, on the Wizard's boards, they're rejoicing and singing Hallelujah! to the changes in this update. Much balancing has been made, and I'm damrned glad for the people at WoTC. They've shown that they're capable of listening to the advice of people who actually play the game and making balance changes, the way it should be done!

A few changes, to those who are curious:

- Bloodclaw + Reckless have been nerfed to encounter powers
- Spitting-Cobra Stance, Agile Opportunist have been nerfed to Immediate Reactions (woohoo, no more abusing forced movement!)
- Storm Pillar activates on an enemy's turn only, to prevent forced movement shenanigans.
- Quicksilver Stance has been nerfed to Standard action instead of move action, so no double attacks on a turn (but there's a weird typo-like thing with the power where you move your full speed in heavy armor but only half-speed in light armor).
- Eldritch Strike can now be selected instead of Eldritch Blast, without having the jump through hoops to do so.
- Avenger's Armor of Faith is now limited to Cloth only. Say bye bye to highest AC in the game, you striker you! Leave that to the defenders!
- Hero of the Faith has been heavily nerfed, it only lasts until you hit (once) or until the enemy drops to 0 hit points.
- Storm of Blades and Hurricane of Blades reduced to a reasonable level (3 attacks max for Storm, 4 for Hurricane with increased damage dice).

[Mando Knight]

- Eldritch Strike can now be selected instead of Eldritch Blast, without having the jump through hoops to do so.

'Bout dern time!

See, the only changes I noticed right away were the Double Weapon and some of the Monk changes, since I saw that the preview material for the Monk was updated, and noticed that the double weapons looked different when I was fiddling around with a Monk build.

[FoE]

Wait, where's Eldritch Strike?

[Mando Knight]

Wait, where's Eldritch Strike?

It's an at-will power packaged with the first series of Arcane hero minis. It's basically trading Eldritch Blast for Melee Training (Charisma/Constitution). Formerly, the Character Builder wouldn't allow Warlocks to choose between the two powers, but now they can, freeing up a feat for HexHammer builds.

[Artanis]

On the small off-chance that somebody out there hadn't noticed yet, they've released new errata that has the changes in it as well. One of the changes (out of those not yet mentioned in the thread) that jumps out at me is that Orb of Ultimate Imposition has been nerfed hard.

[Mando Knight]

One of the changes (out of those not yet mentioned in the thread) that jumps out at me is that Orb of Ultimate Imposition has been nerfed hard.

And the solos rejoice. Except for the low-level ones, since the +1 orb actually got boosted, and the +2 orb stays the same.

[Asbestos]

FINALLY. Especially the double-weapon thing and Eldritch Strike.

But, what exactly is this 'stout' thing? What's this about the primary/secondary ends being listed different? Does that have a ruling effect? Can you post a link to all of this?

Does anyone think this will appear in print in PHB3 (like the revised Stealth rules in PHB2)

Not to feed any fuel to the "4.0" people, but are we now in "4.2"?

[Mando Knight]

But, what exactly is this 'stout' thing? What's this about the primary/secondary ends being listed different? Does that have a ruling effect? Can you post a link to all of this?

Stout is a new property that states you can use the weapon as a two-handed weapon instead of only two one-handed weapons. The ends being listed semi-separately (they're in the same slot, but on different rows) helps with figuring out how the Urgrosh and any other theoretical "Half & Half" weapons work.

Does anyone think this will appear in print in PHB3 (like the revised Stealth rules in PHB2)

I think the revised Double Weapon rules will appear in PHB3, and possibly Martial Power 2, depending on how many two-weapon classes will be available in those. Definitely in AV3.

Not to feed any fuel to the "4.0" people, but are we now in "4.2"?

It could be considered "4.1.8" or so, with 4.0.0 being hot-off-the-press PHB1, and 4.1.0 being PHB2 + MM2 + all 2008 products. "4.2.0" would be PHB/MM3, etc. and include all previous updates. X Power, Official Campaign Setting, and Magazine material would be add-ons that the producer puts in the "gold edition." All the updates and add-ons could also be considered "expansion packs."

[mikeejimbo]

Why don't they want Monks to have enchantable fists? It's not like there are any disarming or sundering rules.

[Inyssius Tor]

The full update notes (except for the monk stuff, which isn't actually errata) can be found here.

I am rather amused by some of the explanations given:

... This change prevents a character from using the stop action to accelerate.

... This change prevents the property from being recursive.

... This change prevents an invoker from putting a Warlock’s Curse on a creature.

... This change makes the power usable.

... This prevents brutal weapons from being augmented to deal infinite damage.

Hee hee.

[Asbestos]

Also, does this effect the feats from Dragon that allow Staffs and Spiked Chains to be Double-Weapons?

[Gralamin]

Also, does this effect the feats from Dragon that allow Staffs and Spiked Chains to be Double-Weapons?

Judging from the Character builder, not yet.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I am both impressed and worried by the pacing of Errata.

On one hand, they're finally fixing things that have been broken for ages. On the other hand, you practically need to use DDI to keep up with the changes.

I hope they make some sort of paper compendium - or at least reprint the PHB I with the rules corrections.

[Asbestos]

I am both impressed and worried by the pacing of Errata.

On one hand, they're finally fixing things that have been broken for ages. On the other hand, you practically need to use DDI to keep up with the changes.

I hope they make some sort of paper compendium - or at least reprint the PHB I with the rules corrections.

I think they'll put them into the back pages of the PHB3, like they did with the updated Stealth rules in the PHB2.

[horseboy]

I never really cared for double weapons...I prefered to wield a weapon in either hand...or a spiked chain as a double weapon. I think they should have left the double weapons behind in 3.5e, or better yet never invented them in 3.0e.

Double swords date back to 1st edition.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I think they'll put them into the back pages of the PHB3, like they did with the updated Stealth rules in the PHB2.

I mean, back pages are nice and all, but one of the nice things about PHB I was that it was the most logically laid-out rulebook I've ever read. I'd hate to have to actually buy all three PHBs to get access to the (literally) Core rules in paper form.

Maybe I should go old school and make a looseleaf binder

[Artanis]

The errata on the website includes all updates, new and old, to (as far as I can tell) everything.

So just go, download, and print

[cupkeyk]

EPG has beebn updated? was there any changes to the zulaat? the Talenta sarrash? Did they gain reach or lose the polearm type?

[Artanis]

I don't see anything about the sarrash. The zulaat has both ends being 2d4 heavy blades, with the main end being defensive+stout and the secondary end being off-hand.

[Asbestos]

I'm trying to figure out the (if any) mechanical significance of 'Stout'. The only thing I can think of is a non-TWF barb that wants to take the occasional TWF-barb power.

[AllisterH]

I realize that this is all just a ploy to bring in the younger players to re-vitalize DnD, but maaaaaan...sometimes the commercialization (is that even a word?) of DnD makes me vomit.

*LOL*

Yeah, I mean, 1st edition would never pander to the player's perceptions of what was popular around the time with younger players.

Hey, did you guys hear....David Carradine dies this year. Might not have heard of him other than Kill Bill, but he played some character back in the 70s...Kind of popular back then, not really sure what it was about though....

Used to be tied together with Sunday/Saturday afternoon bad dubbing movies..pretty unpopular I would imagine.

[Kurald Galain]

Okay, writing this as I read...

(1) This is long, long overdue. I'm glad WOTC finally got their act together.

(2) This is overall rather sloppy. I notice several spots where the errata needs errata, such as Arcane Initiate, Mnemonic Staff, Quicksilver Stance, and Unicorn's Touch.

(3) Several loopholes (that I expect most DMs wouldn't allow anyway due to dubious interpretations) have been removed, such as Vengeful Weapon, Rod of Reaving, Mnemonic Staff, Swordmages wielding 2H weapons, and Dual Weapons in general. This is a good thing.

(4) Most importantly, many of the ubercombos, and the items or powers that everybody wanted regardless of class, are gone. Several of them have been nerfed into oblivion and are mostly useless now, others have a sensible power level. This includes Bloodclaw & Reckless, Cloak of Distortion, Quicksilver and Spitting Cobra, Hero of Faith, and the Riding Lizard.

(5) Some things haven't changed. Bloodiron is still uber, and Bolstering Blood is now even more explicit that it works on every square of Blood Pulse. I've seen lots of nerfs to saving throw penalties, but I believe there's still enough of them to make a viable stunlock wizard. I'll have to check that, though.

(6) Some things that really weren't overpowered have now been nerfed into oblivion. This includes Blastpatch and Storm Pillars.

(7) Some things that didn't work as printed, now do. In particular, Eldritch Strike.

Oh yeah, and Needlefang Drakes have a much-needed nerf. Overall, this is a much-needed fix, and addresses 90% of all the little things that people have been shouting about for months.

Does it strike anyone as odd that there's fifty-eight pages of errata now? Time for 4.5, perhaps?

[AllisterH]

Here's my question.

Why the hell did WOTC never do this for 3.x? I mean, there are a LOT of stuff we could've used errata on back then.

They've basically gone through everything up to Divine Power it seems. I

nteresting that they increased the effectiveness of some features - e.g.
Swordmage - Features that incorporate aegis of assault and shielding now work for potentially all new Aegis, as well, going unconscious isn't as big a kick in the nads as before.

re: Is this 4.5?

Not entirely sure I would either agree or disagree. The *old* change to how Stealth works is a significant update on the core rules (I would lump the swordmage change, the warding effect, as a significant update) but changing how a specifc item or power works? eh...not really.

Especially if it is one that simply says "Ad the word Force to this line" That's just pure editing errata and not something I consider a major change to the system.