[3.5e] A playable Lizardfolk

[Surgo]

For the full stats, click here.

This race went through a few revisions before I finally settled on something I was happy with. The overarching idea was something along the lines of "in a fantasy game, if I can't play a non-humanoid like a lizard-man effectively, the game is a total failure". To that end, I've tried to fix that part of the game.

The choose-your-own stat adjustments are pretty much on par with elves these days which have essentially the same feature -- and it also guarantees that I don't shoehorn lizardfolk into a single class or small group of classes. I seriously want you to be able to play the archetypical barbarian lizard-man if you want, and also the lizardfolk seer if you want to do that too. To prevent it from basically being a human with the serial numbers filed off, you have the choose-your-own stat adjustments.

The other abilities are pretty much flavor, except for Scent (which can be great more often than a flavor ability) and the natural weapons (which I guess a couple builds could take advantage of, maybe), but nothing that is any better than a human who gets to spend his bonus feat on something out of Races of War. The one thing that worried me was Monstrous, but that was recently cut down to allow for only [Monstrous] feats instead of [Fiend] feats, bringing the race back down to what I believe is an acceptable level of power (comparable to a Human).

[PanNarrans]

It's cool, but a little much for LA +0. A climb speed, swim speed and water breathing for free, as well as scent?

On top of that, +2/-2 to ANY stat isn't something I've ever heard of, and will make minmaxers squeal with glee.

Besides, I quite like the MM lizardfolk. +5 NA isn't bad for a level in an unoptimised game, and it's pretty flavourful.

[Solaris]

I agree. Given all of its abilities, I can see it not having any ability modifiers on top of that.

[Surgo]

It's cool, but a little much for LA +0. A climb speed, swim speed and water breathing for free, as well as scent?

The only one of those listed that's worth anything is the scent. When was the last time any group of PCs went "oh man, I really wish one of us had a swim speed!"? The climb speed's worth is even more atrocious -- that's seriously just a flavor ability.

On top of that, +2/-2 to ANY stat isn't something I've ever heard of, and will make minmaxers squeal with glee.

It's no different than what elves are nowadays, so there's no reason to shy away from it.

Besides, I quite like the MM lizardfolk. +5 NA isn't bad for a level in an unoptimised game, and it's pretty flavourful.

You have to pay three levels for it, not one (you're forced to take two crappy racial hit dice in addition to the level adjustment). Everything I make is so people will want to use it (as in, in an optimized game).

[Baron Corm]

Elves all have a -2 to Constitution though, which negatively affects every class. Your lizardfolk can have their -2 to Charisma, which has no downside for any class that doesn't depend on it. Classes that depend on it can have -2 to Strength or Wisdom. You might as well take out the -2.

[Surgo]

Elves all have a -2 to Constitution though, which negatively affects every class. Your lizardfolk can have their -2 to Charisma, which has no downside for any class that doesn't depend on it.

I am almost entirely positive there are elf subraces out there published in official 3.5 books that do not have a constitution penalty. However, it really doesn't matter if any individual lizardfolk can take a -2 to a stat they don't care about or not. At this point anyone can go dumpster diving and find such a race that fits that criteria, but that also doesn't matter. Yeah, the Lizardfolk makes a good race for a Wizard (+2 Int, -2 Str). The fact that it can also make a good race for a fighter (+2 Str or whatever, -2 Cha) is completely irrelevant to the guy who is using it for a Wizard, and vice versa. The race would not be any more balanced if it restricted you to only using +2 Int -2 Str, or +2 Str -2 Cha; it would in fact be exactly as balanced as it is now with the only difference being you suddenly couldn't use it for a large number of classes.

[Gpope]

"Pick +2/-2" is a reasonable rule if and only if you're giving it to everybody; there's absolutely no reason that these guys should be special. Saying "it's just like elves" is a bit of a stretch, too. I'm pretty sure just about all LA +0 elves can be described as "+Dex/+Something/-Con/-Something" (simplified to "+Dex/-Something" in a lot of cases). If you give these guys +2 Con/pick a -2, they're already decent for just about any character archetype you can name.

Even if you go outside of elves for your ability modifiers if you're going for a rare combination you might not get much in the way of racial abilities you want. But climb speed, amphibious swim speed, and scent are all very decent racial abilities, and on top of that it's got a very nice suite of natural weapons for an LA +0 race. As written these things would be an almost automatic go-to race for any character that didn't desperately, desperately need a bonus feat or other specific race feature.

[Surgo]

First of all, how on earth is climb speed a decent racial ability? I mean, it's a climb speed. Seriously, when was the last time anyone ever went "oh man, it would be really great if we had a climb speed right now!"? I can almost see swim speed (and Scent is good, no argument from me there), but...climb speed?

Pick +2/-2" is a reasonable rule if and only if you're giving it to everybody

Have to start somewhere. But this...

As written these things would be an almost automatic go-to race for any character that didn't desperately, desperately need a bonus feat or other specific race feature.

I don't know, I can think of a few:
- Human for reasons listed.
- Grey Elf is still the main Wizard race, as that +2 Dex is totally awesome combined with that +2 Int.
- Halflings get to be small and are still the go-to race for Rogues.
- Gnomes, for that matter, are also small and make a great race for anyone who wants to be small (that includes some Races of War fighting types).
- Dwarves are still pretty great and, when it comes to Fighting types, certainly the equal of the Lizardfolk.

If you expand your options list to include Races of War you can add the Hobgoblin, Aasimar, Goblin, and Drow to that list of races you can reasonably expect to want to use.

[Gpope]

Have to start somewhere.

Why worry about where to start? Just say it applies across the board and you're done. There's no real reason to ever include it in an individual race's writeup.

First of all, how on earth is climb speed a decent racial ability? I mean, it's a climb speed. Seriously, when was the last time anyone ever went "oh man, it would be really great if we had a climb speed right now!"? I can almost see swim speed (and Scent is good, no argument from me there), but...climb speed?

With minimal investment having a climb speed is almost as good as permanent Spider Climb. Being limited to 10' climb speed makes it less useful, but it's still a nice perk to have. Nothing amazing, but racial abilities typically aren't.

- Grey Elf is still the main Wizard race, as that +2 Dex is totally awesome combined with that +2 Int.
- Halflings get to be small and are still the go-to race for Rogues.
- Gnomes, for that matter, are also small and make a great race for anyone who wants to be small (that includes some Races of War fighting types).
- Dwarves are still pretty great and, when it comes to Fighting types, certainly the equal of the Lizardfolk.

All these races have penalties that are much more substantial than the Lizardfolk, too. -2 Con hurts wizards quite a bit, halflings are less than amazing for melee, gnomes' +2 Con isn't as good as +2 to a primary casting stat, and dwarves have a speed penalty.

I did exaggerate a bit, but for melee characters and divine characters this race is still phenomenally good as written. For gish it's absolutely incredible, and for arcane characters with no melee focus it's still very good, on par with any published race for general-purpose arcane builds.

[Baron Corm]

Ok, you're probably right. The ability bonuses are not supplemented by anything except natural attacks and movement speeds, so there's no min-maxing you can really do. Now for some analysis of the other racial features...

The swim speed and amphibious could situationally be either very useful or completely useless. I think you're downplaying how useful it could be in a dungeon with some flooded areas, or in any kind of swamp or beach area. If there's no water, it's not useful. But you have to consider it at full usefulness, because it might be used in that way.

The climb speed is useless just because of how slow it is. A creature with 30 foot base land speed moves at 7.5 feet when climbing normally, and yours moves at 10. I would say either bring it up to 15 or 20, or drop it. Again, this could be useful in an area where a lot of climbing needs to be done, but is no where near as useful as a fly speed, or spider climb, so it's safe to consider it as a minor thing.

Your natural attacks essentially add one attack in a full attack, assuming you're carrying a weapon (the bite attack). It's normally a small amount of damage because you can't enchant it. But to someone who optimizes Power Attack this could add a very large amount of damage. It's probably the best aspect of the race.

Scent lets you track by scent. Woohoo. It's not blindsense. I don't think this is nearly as good as people say.

So basically, the main (only?) reasons to select this race are as a Power Attacker or in an aquatic campaign, ability score bonuses aside. I guess it has a niche. Not many other races get natural attacks.

Lastly, I have no idea what "Races of War" is, or "Monstrous Feats". Are these homebrew? Are you talking about the Monster Manual? And these feats? Anyone can really take those feats as long as they qualify, they just tend to not qualify.

[Ashtagon]

Normally, natural climb/swim speeds come with a free +8 skill bonus to the relevant skill and the ability to take 10 at any time on that skill. That wasn't specified in the write-up, but assuming it is given, that instantly makes those two extremely powerful in situations where they can be used at all.

[Cieyrin]

The thing about the alternate movement speeds is that they do more than just let you move at them in the medium given, they give you a hefty racial bonus of +8 to the skills in question, as well as other perks, like always being able to take 10 or not needing to roll at all. For the climb speed, despite the slowness of it, it makes for a poor man's fly speed at getting out of reach of creatures quite easily and stay there, so meleers can't get at you as you pick 'em off unmolested.

The mutable stat changes is just a min-maxers wet dream and the territory of Pathfinder Humans and those of Pathfinder Human descent. In normal 3.5, it's unprecedented and powerful, which makes it unbalancing on a LA +0 race. You say in the flavor that most are +2 Con -2 Int, so why not just lock it to such and call it good, as the versatility there alone is well on it's way to LA +1.

Finally, for the Monstrous trait, it makes no sense to specifically cite it, as they qualify by virtue of having whatever qualities they meet (in this case, their natural attacks or movement speeds, which aren't common PC race fare), not that they are specifically 'Monstrous'. If anyone wants the respective feats, they'll qualify by having those aspects, nothing else.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Zaydos]

Also a natural climb speed allows you to keep your Dex to AC when climbing. Combine this with javelins or some other thrown weapon and at 1st level you just climb the dungeon wall (that +8 and ability to take 10 make it easy) and hurl weapons down upon your foes. Climb isn't as good as a fly speed, but it is still awesome in a dungeon environment.

[Surgo]

Replies, with the absolute most important first:

I did exaggerate a bit, but for melee characters and divine characters this race is still phenomenally good as written. For gish it's absolutely incredible, and for arcane characters with no melee focus it's still very good, on par with any published race for general-purpose arcane builds.

That's a good thing. I want the race to be good (so Lizardfolk anything is a good character), but not so good there's no reason to use another race. I think that goal has been accomplished fairly well.

The swim speed and amphibious could situationally be either very useful or completely useless. I think you're downplaying how useful it could be in a dungeon with some flooded areas, or in any kind of swamp or beach area. If there's no water, it's not useful. But you have to consider it at full usefulness, because it might be used in that way.

Yeah that is a perfectly valid point and it's kind of the same thing as giving Resistance to Fire 5 -- that's basically a flavor ability because you could seriously go from levels 1 to 5 without seeing it used even once. The fact that swim gets used way less than resistance to fire makes me think this is okay -- you'll run into a situation where "aha, I can swim and breathe underwater!" is going to solve a problem and you will be happy that your otherwise flavorful racial trait was good for you. Then you'll go a few levels without seeing it and forget about it all over again.

It's inherently problematic to balance those abilities, but I think it's fine to include this one (swim speed) because of the profound uselessness of it all of the time and, even when it does become useful, it's only because the DM is basically throwing you a bone.

You say in the flavor that most are +2 Con -2 Int, so why not just lock it to such and call it good, as the versatility there alone is well on it's way to LA +1.

This is nonsense. The fact that some other guy can get a +2 Int, -2 Cha in no way impacts how I currently have a +2 Con, -2 Int. Why on earth would I pay an extra level when that doesn't even impact me at all? The "versatility" doesn't mean anything for a given character who has a given set of immutable stat mods. It's not like he can go and swap them out.

The reason I don't want to lock it in is because I want Lizardfolk [anything] to be a viable character (not the most optimal because it usually isn't, just viable). Locking in stat mods does not accomplish that goal, and in fact takes it in the complete opposite direction where you've made only a few of the [anything] into viable characters.

Finally, for the Monstrous trait, it makes no sense to specifically cite it, as they qualify by virtue of having whatever qualities they meet (in this case, their natural attacks or movement speeds, which aren't common PC race fare), not that they are specifically 'Monstrous'. If anyone wants the respective feats, they'll qualify by having those aspects, nothing else.

I'm specifically referring to feats with the [Monstrous] tag, of which a few come to mind; most from here. (A similar book by the same authors is what I refer to by Races of War, for anyone who was curious.)

Normally, natural climb/swim speeds come with a free +8 skill bonus to the relevant skill and the ability to take 10 at any time on that skill. That wasn't specified in the write-up, but assuming it is given, that instantly makes those two extremely powerful in situations where they can be used at all.

Yeah, that's how it works -- if I should specify that I will. It's not breaking the bank in any case...I mean, it's Climb and Swim. Seriously.

Also a natural climb speed allows you to keep your Dex to AC when climbing. Combine this with javelins or some other thrown weapon and at 1st level you just climb the dungeon wall (that +8 and ability to take 10 make it easy) and hurl weapons down upon your foes

So it's kind of like having a horse for a couple levels while indoors? That's cool. I don't think it's gamebreaking, but it's definitely cool. (I might even call it "better than swim" for levels 1 and 2).


I just want to reiterate what I said in response to Gpope -- the race is supposed to be strong. Not gamebreaking strong, which I am absolutely convinced it is not, but strong enough to play with the big boys (human, grey elf, halfling).

[Toliudar]

I'd definitely consider this a strong choice for just about any class, which sounds like it's exactly what you're going for. If you don't mind a tiny bit of power creep, this build will certainly encourage the race's use by PC's (and make for a great mixed bag of NPC builds, if your DM'ing).

The original Lizardfolk's Claw/claw/bite combo's are 1d4/1d6 damage. Any particular reason you went higher?

[Surgo]

The only reason I went higher was because I thought the 1d4/1d6 were really quite pathetic. I mean, 1d6/1d8 isn't much better (I mean seriously what's 1 point of damage on average going to mean) but at least they aren't worse than a longsword anymore.

[Gpope]

That's a good thing. I want the race to be good (so Lizardfolk anything is a good character), but not so good there's no reason to use another race. I think that goal has been accomplished fairly well.

The problem is that you're setting a goal for the race which is much higher than what published WotC races are designed to. Strongheart Halfling is about the only WotC race I can think of that's really on par with these guys as written: it has a niche where it's just ridiculously awesome, but is great for almost any other build. That's setting the bar awfully damn high.

If we set aside ability modifiers for a moment, it's got a very nice grab bag of abilities. The bite attack is the big one, because it's a hands-free extra attack with no strings attached, so it's a great ability for almost anyone who's going to be doing any melee. Claws, scent, amphibious swim speed, and climb speed are all situational bonuses, but most racial abilities are and this is a selection of perks that most races would kill for. Granted, most races suck. If you're aiming for standards like dwarves, halflings, and gnomes then yeah, I think you're pretty much hitting par as far as the racial traits go.

So... if these guys were stuck with a humdrum set of ability modifiers like +2 Con/-2 Int, or even +2 Con/your choice of -2 they'd be doing OK. Similarly, if you're playing in a campaign where everyone does choose-your-own ability modifiers they're obviously fine. Either way they end up with ability mods on par with other strongish races and racial advantages that are about even. Hell, you could probably even get away with "Pick +2 Str/Dex/Con, -2 to anything else." Str is kind of pushing it due to its synergy with their bite attack (already a big draw for melee characters) but there are plenty of options with +2 Str and some of them even have natural weapons to match.

But letting them bump spellcasting scores with essentially no penalty (dumpstat of your choice!) is crazy if they're supposed to be compared to printed races. +2 Dex or +2 Con is enough to make a viable spellcasting race; halflings, gnomes, and dwarves (for non-Charisma-based classes) are all considered acceptable spellcasters last I checked. This works because it's damn near impossible to find anything with a bonus to Int or Cha that doesn't shoot your Constitution in the foot, and usually leaves you with a pretty crummy set of racial bonuses too. If lizardfolk can get +Int/Wis/Cha with a safe dumpstat and a decent set of perks (a really great set of perks if you're planning on a melee caster)... suddenly a hell of a lot of races become a lot less viable as spellcasters.

[Solaris]

Again, I say removing ability modifiers completely would put them on par with humans, dwarves, and elves. It has natural weapons that allow it to be totally killer in melee at low levels - three attacks to the fighter's one, maybe two if he's dual-wielding. I don't agree that the variability is worth an LA, but I do agree that it's a bad design decision.

[Surgo]

The thing where the natural weapons are possibly too good at level 1 is legitimately worrying. Perhaps those should scale in -- you get one of them at level 1, and then your claws grow in at level 3 or 4.

That seems pretty legitimate to me. You get your bite at level 1 and you're happy about having a natural weapon, but you don't get to make 3 attacks (even at penalty) where everybody else gets to make 2.

[Temotei]

The thing where the natural weapons are possibly too good at level 1 is legitimately worrying. Perhaps those should scale in -- you get one of them at level 1, and then your claws grow in at level 3 or 4.

That seems pretty legitimate to me. You get your bite at level 1 and you're happy about having a natural weapon, but you don't get to make 3 attacks (even at penalty) where everybody else gets to make 2.

That would make no sense. Levels are representations of experience gained over time. Growing claws because of experience doesn't really make sense to me, although that would balance it a little more.

Get rid of the multiple favored classes, unless they're for different genders, and change the ability scores to be either nothing, or to be a set bonus and penalty for each individual.

[Surgo]

Get rid of the multiple favored classes, unless they're for different genders, and change the ability scores to be either nothing, or to be a set bonus and penalty for each individual.

Would you like to perhaps give reasons why you make these suggestions?

Because I have a great reason I made two favored classes -- there are approaching or greater than a hundred base classes in D&D now from WotC published books alone. Having one favored class made a lot of sense when there was only the PHB, but that's not how it is anymore. Everybody should have two favored classes instead of one.

As for the ability scores -- they are a set bonus and penalty for each individual. That's kind of the point. They cannot be swapped out at any point.

That would make no sense. Levels are representations of experience gained over time. Growing claws because of experience doesn't really make sense to me, although that would balance it a little more.

It's not like the claws just randomly grow in -- they always have them, they just don't figure out how to make use of them until they're a little wiser (experience-wise). There is precedent for this already -- I refer to the Raptorian.

[Delandel]

The natural weapons do too much damage. 1d6 bite and 1d4 claws. The flexible ability bonus is cheese. "Elves can do the same thing," is wrong, Grey Elf is the best elf race for wizards and you still suffer a CON penalty. Everyone likes CON. Make the ability +2 CON / -2 CHA and you make the race good for the vast majority of characters.

[Temotei]

Everybody should have two favored classes instead of one.

They don't have two, though.

As for the ability scores -- they are a set bonus and penalty for each individual. That's kind of the point. They cannot be swapped out at any point.

See Delandel's post following yours.

It's not like the claws just randomly grow in -- they always have them, they just don't figure out how to make use of them until they're a little wiser (experience-wise). There is precedent for this already -- I refer to the Raptorian.

The way you say it now, it makes sense.

...you get one of them at level 1, and then your claws grow in at level 3 or 4.

That's the way you said it before. I was just confused as to how experience would make claws grow. That would be like humans growing noses later because they gained experience in life. "Oh...I just broke up with my boyfriend/girlfriend..." *Nose-grow!* Makes me think of Pinocchio.

[Gpope]

As for the ability scores -- they are a set bonus and penalty for each individual. That's kind of the point. They cannot be swapped out at any point.

And they've got a free license to pick amazingly good modifiers that often can't be matched at all and come with serious strings attached when they can.

Essentially, you're not making one race, you're making 31 different very similar subraces. One, that's enough variety to make elves sick of them. Two, while half or so of them are entirely in line with other good, solid race picks, the rest are really overpowered for LA+0 (although not really on par with LA+1, either.) There's no reason that these guys should be better at any spellcasting class than 99% of the published races out there and tied with the remaining 1%.

[Ashtagon]

The only reason I went higher was because I thought the 1d4/1d6 were really quite pathetic. I mean, 1d6/1d8 isn't much better (I mean seriously what's 1 point of damage on average going to mean) but at least they aren't worse than a longsword anymore.

Well, frankly, they SHOULD be worse than a longsword. I really don't think 2-3 inches of tooth and claw should be as powerful as three feet of blade. Even a dagger does less damage than these teeth and claws now, and that is unarguably a bigger weapon.

Plus, these weapons have one other advantage: You can't ever be disarmed by melee disarm attacks or plot fiat.

[Latronis]

Plus, these weapons have one other advantage: You can't ever be disarmed by melee disarm attacks or plot fiat.

Wanna bet?

[Ashtagon]

Wanna bet?

I'm not aware of many campaigns in which the characters have their hands cut off and their mouths stitched shut. I certainly wouldn't consider such a campaign something that should reasonably be considered in balancing a new race.

[Latronis]

You see the elves got all jealous about stealing there shtick so go around declawing and grinding down fangs.

Personally I think Bite attacks should have a higher damage bonus from strength.

[Obrysii]

Scent, a climb and swim speed, water breathing, and two natural attacks do not LA +0 make.

These guys are LA +1. They would make a very comfortable LA +1, and I'd definitely play one at that adjustment.

Surgo, you are extraordinarily defensive with your stats. If you won't acknowledge or use suggestions given here, why are you posting them?

If all of us are agree that a Climb and Swim speeds are not "free" for LA +0, why are you fighting it?

As well - it is customary that all races, monsters, and classes that gain Climb or Swim to list that little paragraph that states they have a +8 bonus on the respective skill, and can take ten.

Finally, the claw and bite damage is way too high. It might work if they're a dragon, but, they aren't. Standard claw and bite damage for a Medium creature is 1d4+1/2 str and 1d6+str respectively.

As written, they are LA +1. They are way too powerful to be considered comparable to humans, or kobolds, or halflings. They are actually significantly more powerful than Merfolk, who are also LA +1.

[Latronis]

Merfolk are kind of Suck though.

50' swim (but 5' land speed!)

Amphibious

+2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Cha.

LA: +1

The stats are nice but they are still kinda useless out of the water.