Overthrowing a King (Without Being Cliche)

[Hashmir]

I won't bore you with the details, but the campaign I'm running is eventually going to have the party overthrow a self-appointed king. The problem I have is that the party is quickly going to have to move on to something much more important than running the state, but it's pretty much necessary that the kingdom become stable very quickly -- the main character is from this kingdom, and it's very important to her that it is ruled well.

The obvious solution is to have a "rightful heir thought dead," whom the party can return to the throne and continue on their merry way. Unfortunately, that is simply too hackneyed to use, and the party will see it coming as soon as their existence is mentioned. But anything else I can think of is either unlikely to rule well or unlikely to smoothly transition power without straining plausibility.

Thus far, my best idea has been an underground group that still remembers the old ways, back when there was a parliament. Still, I suspect you guys can do better. What has happened when you guys have overthrown rulers?

[Doc Roc]

I suggest placing it in the control of a council of elemental weirds.

When in doubt, when the problems come too fast, too heavy, and other brands of conflict resolution let you down, choose...

Kwisatz Haderach
Some side-effects may occur, gholas not included.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Have a "rightful heir, thought dead" - but make him this devious bastard that tries to have the party killed because they are too big a threat. After all, they killed the last king, didn't they?

[Hashmir]

Have a "rightful heir, thought dead" - but make him this devious bastard that tries to have the party killed because they are too big a threat. After all, they killed the last king, didn't they?

Well, fortunately (I think this works in my favor) the main PC used to work for the old king, until about 80 years ago -- when the new guy took over. Scheming nobles took advantage of the Spellplague to stage a coup, but now they're all dead except the king (because he's secretly a green dragon).

So the plot pretty much has to take them to fix the kingdom, but I'd like that to cap off the heroic tier so I can send them after bigger, dragon-related problems when they start paragon. It helps that she knows the kingdom and everything about the old monarchy; it hurts that everyone from then is dead except her and the dragon.

Anyone she wants to put in power is going to be about two generations down from the people she knew, and I'd like to have them actually be trustworthy. I'd also like to have them seem trustworthy, so the party doesn't waste time being suspicious of their motives. (Can you tell this isn't dark-and-gritty-land? )

Now that I think about it, I might say the noble Church of Whoever took in the other survivors of the coup, and kept them and their heirs hidden for all this time. This would help make the whole setup believable, even more so if the PC knew some priest back then who is still alive -- he could vouch for the character of the resistance. Plus, I'd get to send the PCs in with a bunch of holy warriors who pretend to be priests, and that's awesome.

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I swear, I get half of my ideas just posting on here.

[Tackyhillbillu]

If you want to be on the slightly more morally grey side of things, have them become involved with a General of the Army who is planning a Coup d'etat.

Palace Coups were (and are) pretty common, and usually pulled off by the Military. Transitions are normally pretty smooth when one guy has all the military force.

Make the fellow as good or evil as desired, to fit the party's needs. Military leaders can actually make very effective rulers, see Julius Caesar.

[Gpope]

A couple other alternatives:

A suitable neighboring power might step up, either by merging with the vacant kingdom outright or by providing someone with a valid claim. The latter is sort of a variant on the "rightful heir", except it doesn't necessarily need to be someone who would have realistically been in line for the throne otherwise. Royal families tend to intermarry a lot, so an adjacent kingdom's rulers might very well be distant relatives of the long-gone rightful heir; they've got a second son who's kicking around the castle being bummed about his lack of inheritance, but he's really a swell guy and he's technically got a claim to the now-vacant throne over here.

Unless it's a really tiny kingdom, the king's going to need plenty of vassals and officials to administer things, and even if the king himself is evil it's unrealistic to assume that everyone who serves them is inherently evil. Maybe there's someone in the current regime worthy enough to be promoted--they might have sworn unbreakable fealty to the king before he showed his true nature, or maybe the king had coerced them into service. Maybe they were the only thing keeping the king's rule from being even worse than it actually was.

[Emperor Tippy]

Step 1: Find out who the greatest king that the kingdom has ever had was.
Step 2: Use Teleport Through Time to travel back to right before said king was about to die.
Step 3: Fake said kings death.
Step 4: Find the most kingly looking young adult person of the kings race.
Step 5: Use Dominate Person to take over the king.
Step 6: Force the king to make use of a True Mind Switch item to switch bodies with the younger dude.
Step 7: Whack both the now young king and his old body with Temporal Stasis.
Step 8: Teleport the old body into the sun (or a black hole, it doesn't really matter).
Step 9: Store the king in a nice safe place where he won't be found before your time.
Step 10: Go back to your time.
Step 11: Go and wake up the King.
Step 12: Use Mind Rape to update the King on the history of the kingdom while he was in stasis and make him believe that he has been reincarnated in the kingdoms hour of need because of a ritual that your party completed that involved rescuing his soul from the underworld (whatever suitably epic quest your bard can make up). Perhaps a bit about him being God touched and that the God's have let him come back because he is needed.

Step 13: Get a beer.

There, problem solved in 13 easy steps.
yes, I do consider employing multiple 9th level effects and time travel to be easy steps

[BobVosh]

Do the cliche. However make it be the imposter king using various tricks that they overthrow a fake. The king knows they plot to over throw him, so he plans on making them overthrow himself with...himself.

[Katana_Geldar]

A palace plot is rather good, get a few nobles on your side and maybe the church.

[Hashmir]

Ooh, lots of ideas.

Well, for this specific situation, there isn't really anyone noble within the upper ranks. The original coup basically killed off all the good guys in the court and disbanded/killed the entire parliament, so now it's just the new king and a few descendants of the scheming nobles (who make up the court).

As far as governance goes, he's not so much malicious as ineffective. For him (green dragon, remember), it's about the having, not the using. He sits on his kingdom like a hoard, and it's been in slow decline ever since. He's still evil, of course, largely because he doesn't give a damn about the well-being of anyone in the kingdom, and he holds it just so he can have it.

On the other hand, he really cares about his turf's borders, so there has been a general focusing of military force on the borders and ports, instead of places that could use a bit of extra law enforcement. This has also led to trade problems, so the economy is suffering.

All in all, I've liked a lot of the ideas so far. I'm definitely leaning toward involving the church, and possibly the army. I might do away with the whole idea of a monarchy and make it a republic, a la Rome.

[Nightson]

What makes you think a rightful heir would necessarily rule well?

[Hashmir]

What makes you think a rightful heir would necessarily rule well?

They wouldn't, necessarily, but if you can establish that they would, it removes a lot of other problems by letting you say, "...and he was crowned king and everyone else just kinda went with it. The end."

That said, there was already a coup 80 years ago, and that seemed to go off pretty smoothly, so maybe I've already established that there's a bit of a disconnect between the people and the government. Perhaps it's not that strange after all.

[gdiddy]

Okay, Easy-Peasy Dynastc Dispute Generator gave us three indirect heirs for the party to find:

The old king had a bastard. The boy is currently serving in a monastery and is going to take his priestly vows at the next moon's turn.

The old king had an aunt who was married off to a neighboring kingdom. Well, from her issued three girls. The youngest of these girls was married to a Count from the back woods of the Party's kingdom. This count had a son who is now 19. His name is Henry, but his plucky dwarven master at arms calls him (Harry the Heir.)

The same aunt had another daughter who married a Duke and head of a rich family in the other kingdom. His son is about 30 and has just been elected High Prince by a council of nobles. He is raising an army to reclaim his birthright. This man is named Edwin, and is generally regarded as an excellent governor and warrior.

The Bastard is actually the most legitimate heir, as a direct line male, but will refuse the party. He directs them to the Count's son, Henry. He neglects to tell them about Edwin, because he is out of the country. Henry is content to be a Count, but will rise to the crown if the party convinces him he is the only way. Edwin will invade next Spring, unless the party convinces him otherwise. He is descended from the older sister.

Henry is an untested boy with little ambition, though he does love his country. Edwin is an accomplished war leader with a son and a beautiful wife. Either would make a great king, though Edwin would bring an alliance ad an army.

There.

[Hashmir]

Wow. That's really cool. I'll obviously be altering it, based on appropriate locations and organizations and what-have-you, but a large chunk of that is definitely going into the campaign. My hat is off to you.

[gdiddy]

Don't thank me. I just cribbed the dynastic dispute that lead to the Battle of Hastings. Four kings in one year. Britannia forever.

[Katana_Geldar]

The old man had a son that was prophecised he would one day be the cause of the overthrow and/or death of his father. The child was exposed but found by someone and raised in obscurity.

[gdiddy]

Rather Mycenaean. Though I suppose my suggesion was Byzantine.

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It's all Greek to me!

Seriously, though. I'd be honored if you put that in your campaign. Definitely post here and tell us how it goes!

[Katana_Geldar]

The Romans borrowed it.

[Hashmir]

Well, I'd be happy to report back when it comes up -- but it's a solo game with my girlfriend, and we'll be starting at level 1 on Thanksgiving (if we're done with Escape from Sembia by then). So if we do one 3-hour session a week...

...then this plotline will likely show up in January. Of course, I need to know the general plot in advance, which is why I'm asking, but she probably won't see it for a long time. Sooner if I introduce the first grand-niece/nephew pretty early on -- which I might do, now that I think about it. It would certainly help get the plot on-track, but I'll need to figure out how to tie it in to the existing intrigue...

I'll return once I've got this all sorted out in my head.

[Omegonthesane]

Step 1: Find out who the greatest king that the kingdom has ever had was.
Step 2: Use Teleport Through Time to travel back to right before said king was about to die.
Step 3: Fake said kings death.
Step 4: Find the most kingly looking young adult person of the kings race.
Step 5: Use Dominate Person to take over the king.
Step 6: Force the king to make use of a True Mind Switch item to switch bodies with the younger dude.
Step 7: Whack both the now young king and his old body with Temporal Stasis.
Step 8: Teleport the old body into the sun (or a black hole, it doesn't really matter).
Step 9: Store the king in a nice safe place where he won't be found before your time.
Step 10: Go back to your time.
Step 11: Go and wake up the King.
Step 12: Use Mind Rape to update the King on the history of the kingdom while he was in stasis and make him believe that he has been reincarnated in the kingdoms hour of need because of a ritual that your party completed that involved rescuing his soul from the underworld (whatever suitably epic quest your bard can make up). Perhaps a bit about him being God touched and that the God's have let him come back because he is needed.

Step 13: Get a beer.

There, problem solved in 13 easy steps.
yes, I do consider employing multiple 9th level effects and time travel to be easy steps

Sorry your Imperial Highness, this campaign appears to be taking place in 4th Ed, where your famous shenanigans don't work.

As for how to solve the issue... I had a similar issue in a PbP thing a few months ago. We solved it by arranging for someone trusted by the party to pretend to be the "rightful heir" and execute anyone who doubts him too loudly.

Is it absolutely essential to the plot that the entire court be not only total bastards, but be incompetent to rule as well? Maybe the usurper's son, who is bored of not being in power himself and tired of his father's incompetence, convinces the party that he'd be an effective ruler and lives up to his word.

[Hashmir]

Is it absolutely essential to the plot that the entire court be not only total bastards, but be incompetent to rule as well? Maybe the usurper's son, who is bored of not being in power himself and tired of his father's incompetence, convinces the party that he'd be an effective ruler and lives up to his word.

Well, it is essential to the plot that the ruler is actually a (fairly young) green dragon. As for the nobles of the court, they're incompetent mostly because all of the good ones were killed in the coup, the remaining ones basically got an asston of money in return for heavily decentralizing power (so they all get to run their own mini-kingdom), and now their grandchildren are in the court. Its not inconceivable that one of them might have ambition to the throne, but they're mostly spoiled, and the skills they do have are spent fighting with each other over trifles.

[Katana_Geldar]

Bah, someone being incompitent to rule does not stop them from trying to get there.

[gdiddy]

Hashmir, if you all that time, I highly suggest the book A Game of Thrones. It's thick, but you'll blow through it in a week. It resembles the situation you describe and is a primer on how to make medieval intrigue work and be interesting.

[Hashmir]

Bah, someone being incompitent to rule does not stop them from trying to get there.

No, but it does mean that the party can't just stick them on the throne and walk away. At least not this party.

And I will check out that book. Wikipedia suggests it's a pretty popular series as a whole, so it seems my time will not be wasted.

[Omegonthesane]

How important is it to the _player_ of this PC that the kingdom be ruled well? I personally would like the character development potential if she had no option but to let her kingdom disintegrate, and maybe go back there when the paragon-tier problem is solved. Frankly, without competent military assistance, that is exactly how things are going to go down, and forced to the choice, a true hero wouldn't selfishly ensure her own kingdom's welfare when there are much bigger things at stake.

[BobVosh]

No, but it does mean that the party can't just stick them on the throne and walk away. At least not this party.

And I will check out that book. Wikipedia suggests it's a pretty popular series as a whole, so it seems my time will not be wasted.

Keeps killing all my favorite chars from it :(

[Ormur]

It depends on the PC's but if they tended towards chaotic good I'd have them institute an egalitarian democracy, abolishing the privileges of the nobles and holding elections, power to the people, viva la revolution! If your campaign world is on the idealistic part of the spectrum it might end up all fine and dandy but if not things might degenerate into mob rule, civil war and a takeover by an unscrupulous strongman.
Or just have the ignorant peasants vote for a charismatic noble as their next king, he could even be semi-legitimate as per others advices here.

[bosssmiley]

I won't bore you with the details, but the campaign I'm running is eventually going to have the party overthrow a self-appointed king. The problem I have is that the party is quickly going to have to move on to something much more important than running the state, but it's pretty much necessary that the kingdom become stable very quickly -- the main character is from this kingdom, and it's very important to her that it is ruled well.

In D&D-land (3E especially) legitimacy of rule is entirely dependent upon power. 'Rightful' doesn't mean jack unless you have the levels, magic and manpower to back up your claims. Power = Right and everything else is just window-dressing justifying the local regime.

Money? That gets taken off you by people with more power.
Law? Is what the people with power say it is.
Divine Approval? The gods love winners and people who build them new temples.
Dynastic Legitimacy? Is the result of a dynasty killing off rivals and passing down carefully hoarded power from one generation to the next.

That caveat given it should be quite simple to topple a local tyrant and replace him with your own enlightened rule if you have more power than him. Subvert or kill the existing ruler's lieutenants, stage a coup, parade the old king's head on a pike, and les autres will likely fall into line. The commons, bureaucracy and rank-and-file of the army will use the transition to a new regime to riot, do some minor looting, settle some old personal scores, and will then settle down to kow-tow to the newest wearer of the big shiny hat.

The moment you turn your back though, someone else can (and likely will) hop onto your vacated throne, proclaim himself the new improved rooster of the dunghill, and derail all your useful improvements in favour of his own pet projects. Stability in D&D-land depends on the ruler being available to enforce it.

Useful source material:
Nick Macchiavelli's The Prince is all about ways and means of ruling in a chaotic society.
Birthright was a version of D&D expanded to cover the trials and tribulations of rulership.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Is one of the players willing to retire their PC? That may be the simplest way of solving the issue.

Alternatively, have them encounter an intelligent, wise, fairly decent NPC with some kind of leadership experience. Whether or not he's a legitimate heir doesn't matter, he's friends with the guys who just killed a Dragon. His rule should be more-or-less accepted.

[Jayabalard]

It's kind of silly to worry about the "without being cliche" part... I mean, overthrowing a king is, in and of itself, pretty cliche.