Successful will saves and awareness?

[rubycona]

I've been looking over the spells and something's bugging me. It doesn't seem to say anywhere whether or not a caster realized a spell failed due to a successful save (namely, will saves).

For instance, say a wizard casts suggestion on a lower level wizard. Lowbie wizard succeeds on both spellcraft and the will save, so is under no compulsion, but recognizes the higher level wizard tried to compel him. If the higher level wizard doesn't know the lowbie passed the save, then the lowbie might try a bluff check to make the caster think that he's now under a magical compulsion, so he can get away with no trouble.

But if the higher level wizard Does know the spell failed, then, of course, he can't be fooled that way, and may try another response. This actually will matter a great deal in my upcoming D&D game.

From my perspective, there's 3 kinds of will-savey spells: direct to mind, a "blanket" effect, or a magically altered area.

Direct to mind, like Detect Thoughts, Charm Person, or Discern Lies... to me, it seems like the caster should know that the target succeeded on the will save. Spells like Hypnotism & Dictum are "blanket" effects, to me, and I really have no idea if the spellcaster should know if the target(s) passed the save. And finally, area spells, like Zone of Truth, which stay in place regardless of what the caster proceeds to do... to me, these, the caster should Not know if people inside the zone passed the will save.


So, all, what's your take? And do the rules actually state this stuff anywhere? (If so, where? I couldn't find it). Should all spellcasters Not know, unless there's an obvious indication (IE, "You b****, you tried to cast a spell on me, didn't you?" In reaction to a Suggestion spell). Should all spellcasters know if someone passed the will save, even with spells like Zone of Truth? Do you split up spells into similar categories as I did, and decide it according to that, or some other method of determination?


Additionally, I've gotten the impression from reading that you can tell that something went against you if you pass the will save. IE, if you're minding your own business, and someone casts, say, Dominate Person on you, but you pass the save, then you Know something tried to do something to you, though not what it was. Do you guys agree with that perspective?

Thanks, all, for your help :) (This forums rocks, btw :P)

[PhoenixRivers]

You are aware when a target passes a save for your spells. There are some feats/skill tricks that negate that, however.

[rubycona]

Thank you. Is that RAW, and if so, where should I look for it? Again, I can't seem to find it, and I'd rather not reread the whole DMG again >.>

[PhoenixRivers]

I believe it's PHb 177.

[rubycona]

OMG! I cannot believe I missed that. I swear I read over that section 3 times today. OMG.

I feel retarded. *falls over and dies an disgraceful death*

Thanks for pointing that out XD *still feels freaking retarded*

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I suppose it's academic now, but I can't seem to find a direct ruling in the SRD. The closest thing I can find is this:

The Spell’s Result

Once you know which creatures (or objects or areas) are affected, and whether those creatures have made successful saving throws (if any were allowed), you can apply whatever results a spell entails.

... from here. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough.

[rubycona]

Most embarrassingly, it's right there on page 177 of the PHB1, under "Saving Throw" and the subsection, Succeeding on a Saving Throw:

"Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully
saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a
hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the
attack. For example, if you secretly cast charm person on a creature
and its saving throw succeeds, it knows that someone used magic
against it, but it can’t tell what you were trying to do. Likewise, if a
creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, such as
charm person, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense
when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells"

It's driving me nuts. I swear I went over that section and just did not see it. I do not know how I missed that. Grah!

[Xallace]

I suppose it's academic now, but I can't seem to find a direct ruling in the SRD. The closest thing I can find is this:

... from here. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough.

Well, there's this from the SRD:

When you succeed on a save against a charm or compulsion effect, the character trying to charm or compel you believes that you failed your save. You can play along voluntarily if you wish to. if the charm or compulsion involves telepathic commands, you continue to receive them, although you aren't obligated to follow them.

...which is kinda roundabout, but implies that you usually know when someone fails a save.

EDIT: Also, the above post.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I found it in the Psionics part, which is just weird.

[PhoenixRivers]

Yeah, I've dealt with that issue more than once. ;)

[Thurbane]

There is a feat that gets around this: False Pretenses