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    Default Space Marine! (PEACH)

    I haven't written up the fluff, as others have done it much better than I. For example, the people who came up with the Adeptus Astartes to begin with. What I'm looking for is some idea as to how this guy compares to ordinary humans - I'm thinking LA +2 or so.
    A Marine who loses all of his special organs suffers penalties in excess of the racial bonuses. That was deliberate.

    Marine Racial Traits
    - Ability Modifiers: +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution. The Imperium's finest are stronger, faster, and tougher than normal humans.
    - Medium-Sized: As Medium creatures, Marines have no special bonuses or penalties due to size.
    - Speed: A Marine's base land speed is 30 feet.
    - Type: Monstrous Humanoid. Unlike other monstrous humanoids, Marines do not gain any proficiencies or darkvision.
    - Racial Hit Dice: 2 HD. A Marine's monstrous humanoid levels give him a BAB of +2, +3 Reflex and Will saves, +0 Fortitude save, one feat, and (2 + Int modifier) x 5 skill points. A Marine's class skills (and the key ability for each) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Drive (Dex), Jump (Str), Pilot (Dex), Swim (Str). He may gain additional class skills based on his Chapter.
    - Gene-Seed: A Marine gains a bonus Gene-Seed feat at 1st level, reflecting which Chapter he belongs to.
    - Secondary Heart (Ex): The Marine gains a +10 increase to his massive damage threshold. Losing his secondary heart will reduce the Marine's Constitution score by 4 points.
    - Ossmodula (Ex): Due to the modifications of the Marine's skeleton, he receives +3 wound points. Losing the ossmodula will reduce the Marine's Strength and Constitution both by 2 points.
    - Biscopea (Ex): The increase in muscle mass grants the Marine the Powerful Build trait.
    - Haemastamen (Ex): This supports the secondary heart, ossmodula, and biscopea. Losing the hameastamen will reduce the Marine's Constitution score by 2 and will remove the benefits of the above listed organs.
    - Larraman's Organ (Ex): The Marine's increased healing factor means he heals damage at twice the normal rate and automatically stabilizes if reduced to negative wound points.
    - Catalepsean Node (Ex): While this is active, the Marine only takes a -2 penalty to Spot and Listen checks and may carry out light duties while asleep. Losing the catalepsean node will reduce the Marine's Wisdom score by 2.
    - Preomnor (Ex): This pre-stomach gives the Marine a +4 racial bonus on Fortitude saves against poison and allows him to survive on any organic material with little ill effect.
    - Omophagea (Ex): With this, a Marine is able to consume a pound of a creature's flesh to absorb some of its memories. With a successful DC 15 Wisdom check, the Marine learns some of the creature's memory about on par with having watched a movie or read a book about it.
    - Multi-lung (Ex): This enables the Marine to breathe thin and toxic atmospheres with no ill effect, granting him a +4 bonus on Fortitude saves against inhaled poisons. He can also hold his breath ten times as long as normal with the multi-lung.
    - Occulobe (Ex): This grants the Marine a +4 racial bonus on Spot and vision-based Search checks. He also has low-light vision, able to see twice as far as a human in conditions of poor illumination.
    - Lyman's Ear (Ex): This grants the Marine a +4 racial bonus on Balance and Listen checks.
    - Sus-an Membrane (Ex): This enables the marine to enter a period of suspended animation as a full-round action or as a reaction to taking damage in excess of his massive damage threshold. Once in suspended animation, he ages at one-hundredth the normal rate but cannot be woken except by a specific chemical trigger from a Marine apothecary. He cannot die while in suspended animation, even if reduced to less than -10 wound points, but if restored without first being healed the Marine will succumb to his wounds. Losing this reduces the Marine's Intelligence score by 2 points.
    - Melanochromic Organ (Ex): Thanks to this, the Marine treats all radiation exposure as being one degree lower.
    - Oolitic Kidney (Ex): This organ grants the Marine a +4 racial bonus on all Fortitude saves made against disease and poison. If he succumbs to a disease or poison, the Marine can choose to go unconscious for 1d4+1 minutes and gain another Fortitude save at the same DC to cleanse himself of his ailment. Losing the Oolitic kidney reduces the Marine's Constitution score by 2 points.
    - Neuroglottis (Ex): In addition to enabling the Marine to detect poisons, diseases, and other chemicals simply by tasting an item, the neuroglottis also gives him the Scent extraordinary ability.
    - Mucranoid (Ex): This allows a Marine, with the appropriate chemotherapy (a process taking eight hours that counts as light duty), to render himself immune to extremes of weather between -40 degrees and 160 degrees. He can also survive up to 10 minutes of constant exposure to vacuum at a time with no ill effect, though suffocation is still a threat. This protection lasts for 30 days.
    - Betcher's Gland (Ex): The two implants in his mouth enables the Marine to spit contact poison at any target within 5 feet as a ranged touch attack. If his target has exposed eyes, it must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Marine's HD + Marine's Con modifier) or be blinded for 2d4 + Marine's Con bonus (if any) hours. Regardless of whether or not the target is blinded, it also takes 1d6 points of acid damage (reducing an object's hardness by that much if unliving).
    - Progenoids (Ex): Though absolutely vital for continuing the Chapter thanks to the gene-seeds they contain, the progenoid glands do not have any affect on the Marine himself. Most Marines have theirs removed as soon as they have matured.
    - Black Carapace (Ex): The interface between a Marine and his armor, the black carapace enables him to use his armor proficiently. Without it, a Marine can never progress beyond Scout as his armor is only so much ceramite.
    - Automatic Languages: Low Gothic. Bonus Languages: High Gothic.
    - Favored Class: Soldier. +10% experience point bonus for having more than half the levels in this class.
    - Level Adjustment: +2. A Marine has an ECL of 4 before class levels.
    Last edited by Solaris; 2009-11-22 at 01:56 AM.
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    Default Re: Space Marine! (PEACH)

    So is this just a modified human? If so, it could be a template. Then again, you'd have to recalculate a bit, because I don't think templates have included racial levels yet...
    Last edited by Temotei; 2009-11-21 at 11:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Space Marine! (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Temotei221 View Post
    So is this just a modified human? If so, it could be a template. Then again, you'd have to recalculate a bit, because I don't think templates have included racial levels yet...
    Lycanthropy is a template, and it most certainly has racial levels.
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    Default Re: Space Marine! (PEACH)

    Lycanthropy is a template, and it most certainly has racial levels.
    Whoops. Forgot about that.
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    Default Re: Space Marine! (PEACH)

    I was torn between having it be a template and not. After all, a prospective marine does start off being an ordinary human - but he undergoes a specific transformative process that has to happen at certain periods of his life in order to become a proper Space Marine. Only non-mutant, non-abhuman humans are Space Marines, so there really wouldn't be much payoff to writing it as a template (even if Ork Marines amuse me more than they should).
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    Default Re: Space Marine! (PEACH)

    I was torn between having it be a template and not. After all, a prospective marine does start off being an ordinary human - but he undergoes a specific transformative process that has to happen at certain periods of his life in order to become a proper Space Marine. Only non-mutant, non-abhuman humans are Space Marines, so there really wouldn't be much payoff to writing it as a template (even if Ork Marines amuse me more than they should).
    Makes sense, but at the same time, I think it would make sense to make it a template restricted to humans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    I'm thinking LA +2 or so.
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    No. Consider the stat bonuses granted by the Vampire template. It has several crippling weaknesses and it's still LA +8. This is basically unplayable, unless everyone else is a Space Marine too.

    Don't get caught up in the fluff. I'd make this into a template for humans that increases Str and Con by +2, grants a +4 racial bonus against poison and disease, and a +2 morale bonus to will saves against fear. Call it LA +2 then.
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    Default Re: Space Marine! (PEACH)

    Yeah, I'm thinking more along the lines of +3 - +6...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch View Post
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    No. Consider the stat bonuses granted by the Vampire template. It has several crippling weaknesses and it's still LA +8. This is basically unplayable, unless everyone else is a Space Marine too.

    Don't get caught up in the fluff. I'd make this into a template for humans that increases Str and Con by +2, grants a +4 racial bonus against poison and disease, and a +2 morale bonus to will saves against fear. Call it LA +2 then.
    That depends - I've found the Vampire to be almost unplayable due to its ridiculously high LA, and I've also found none of its weaknesses are truly crippling. Sunlight seems to be the only one that could really hurt it, and most vampires have the smarts to remain well outside of the sun's reach. They can go gaseous, so it's not like someone can really force 'em into the sun or under running water. The vamp's resistances make it survivable, though, even with that high LA. The Marines don't have those. With any less than +4, maybe +6 Con, I wouldn't ever make a primary combatant race with an LA of +2. The hit point reduction as compared to a human of the same level just hurts it too much unless it has a lot to compensate - like the vampire. DR 5/- is great, though.

    I gave 'em +4 Str on account of the Powerful Build - they're midway between Medium and Large size, much like Goliaths. Seven feet tall, when the cutoff for Large is eight feet tall. The +2 Dex... well, that one could go any which way. I put it in there because these guys are supposed to be highly agile and good shots despite their size. The bonuses to mental stats come from their extensive mental training.

    Your reduced version has the elegance of simplicity, but it does ignore a lot of the implants and modifications related to the senses, sleep, etc. To me, it looks more along the lines of an LA +1 the way you wrote it. Like I said above, losing two hit dice is worth at least +4 Con. Somewhere between the two versions, I think, would be best.

    I'm considering replacing the immunity to inhaled/ingested poisons with a +4 bonus, though. Coupled with the boost to Constitution, that's still practical immunity to poison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temotei221 View Post
    Yeah, I'm thinking more along the lines of +3 - +6...
    Hrm. I think you might be right, but I'm concerned about losing combat capability. A human fighter of 9th-10th level is a lot better at fighting than a Marine fighter of the same ECL. The Marine's sacrificing a lot of BAB and is staying at only about the same hit points - but I could compensate by giving the Marine some better equipment.
    Last edited by Solaris; 2009-11-22 at 12:34 AM.
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    You clearly have played Warhammer, so consider the difference between a Spare Marine model and an Imperial Guard model, which is just a normal human.

    +1 WS and BS, which is a product of training. +1 S, T and I from the physical enhancements, and a higher leadership score + ATSKNF.

    Converted to d20, I'd call that +2 Str, +2 Con, maybe +2 Dex and a bonus against fear/poison, which makes the template/race a viable option, instead of an exaltation of Games Workshop fluff. In D&D/Modern terms, Marines are probably higher level characters, which better explains their prowess than huge racial bonuses to stats.

    Space Marines still take wounds from a Banewolf's Chem Cannon and Poisoned Attacks, despite their poison immunity. Space Marines don't roll extra dice during Night Fight games, despite their enhanced vision. Space Marines still fall back and can still fail Morale checks, despite their battle-hardened nerves.

    Playability is almost always superior to accuracy to the lore.
    Last edited by Catch; 2009-11-22 at 12:39 AM.
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    Default Re: Space Marine! (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch View Post
    You clearly have played Warhammer, so consider the difference between a Spare Marine model and an Imperial Guard model, which is just a normal human.

    +1 WS and BS, which is a product of training. +1 S, T and I from the physical enhancements, and a higher leadership score + ATSKNF.
    >>; Actually, I just paint 'em. I've only recently started cracking open the books - I was about to ask you to provide exactly what you just said.
    By the way, what's ATSKNF mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch View Post
    Converted to d20, I'd call that +2 Str, +2 Con, maybe +2 Dex and a bonus against fear/poison, which makes the template/race a viable option, instead of an exaltation of Games Workshop fluff. In D&D/Modern terms, Marines are probably higher level characters, which better explains their prowess than huge racial bonuses to stats.
    I think you might be having a point... even if I do like making 'em some seriously superhuman monstars (misspelled deliberately, Tem, it's a pun). Lowering it from the fluff to the stats does help playability a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch View Post
    Space Marines still take wounds from a Banewolf's Chem Cannon and Poisoned Attacks, despite their poison immunity. Space Marines don't roll extra dice during Night Fight games, despite their enhanced vision. Space Marines still fall back and can still fail Morale checks, despite their battle-hardened nerves.
    Well, fluff-wise it doesn't read quite as immunity, just resistance. I just thought to myself, "Well, heck, it's close enough". I'm changing it, though.
    Heh. I didn't give 'em any bonuses against fear. That, I think, is training.
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    Depends on what you're going by: the game mechanics for space marines aren't insanely awesome simply because... well, you'df have a bunch of insanely awesome units on the field.
    In the fluff of the Warhammer 40k setting, a Space Marine is an unstoppable killing machine, able to take a bolter shell to the unarmored head and keep going, and punch a regular human's head off bare fisted. With power armor, one is supposedly able to take on small armies.
    So... I'd actually call the stats here accurate. I'd balance them against something like the sand giant and just give them 10+ RHD, maybe make the RHD better by giving them all good saves and full BAB, maybe some bonus feats, then 2 or 3 LA. So, they're truly unstoppable killing machines... but, hey, it's years of toughening up and training for it. Definitely equivalent to about a 15th level character.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    By the way, what's ATSKNF mean?
    "They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear." - The Emperor of Mankind

    Space Marines have a special rule called And They Shall Know No Fear, which lets them automatically regroup after falling back. Basically, they're Chuck Norris clones in power armour.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Depends on what you're going by: the game mechanics for space marines aren't insanely awesome simply because... well, you'df have a bunch of insanely awesome units on the field.
    In the fluff of the Warhammer 40k setting, a Space Marine is an unstoppable killing machine, able to take a bolter shell to the unarmored head and keep going, and punch a regular human's head off bare fisted. With power armor, one is supposedly able to take on small armies.
    So... I'd actually call the stats here accurate. I'd balance them against something like the sand giant and just give them 10+ RHD, maybe make the RHD better by giving them all good saves and full BAB, maybe some bonus feats, then 2 or 3 LA. So, they're truly unstoppable killing machines... but, hey, it's years of toughening up and training for it. Definitely equivalent to about a 15th level character.
    I seem to recall seeing some mention of non-standard rules written to make SMs more in line with their fluff versions. It jacked the point price of 'em up proportionately. The problem with that is if we're doing 'em like that, then we really can't quite work 'em for the 3-10 level range, which is where I like to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch View Post
    "They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear." - The Emperor of Mankind

    Space Marines have a special rule called And They Shall Know No Fear, which lets them automatically regroup after falling back. Basically, they're Chuck Norris clones in power armour.
    Ahh. Thanks for clearing that up.
    Last edited by Solaris; 2009-11-22 at 01:33 AM.
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    Changed it up some. It's in between the fluff and the crunch.
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    Default Re: Space Marine! (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    In the fluff of the Warhammer 40k setting, a Space Marine is an unstoppable killing machine, able to take a bolter shell to the unarmored head and keep going, and punch a regular human's head off bare fisted. With power armor, one is supposedly able to take on small armies.
    So... I'd actually call the stats here accurate. I'd balance them against something like the sand giant and just give them 10+ RHD, maybe make the RHD better by giving them all good saves and full BAB, maybe some bonus feats, then 2 or 3 LA. So, they're truly unstoppable killing machines... but, hey, it's years of toughening up and training for it. Definitely equivalent to about a 15th level character.
    So is everything else in 40k.......... Eldar aspect warriors are at least equal to Space Marines, Nercons one shot them...etc The only exception is Imperial Guard, Orks and certian Tyranid armies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talkkno View Post
    So is everything else in 40k.......... Eldar aspect warriors are at least equal to Space Marines, Nercons one shot them...etc The only exception is Imperial Guard, Orks and certian Tyranid armies.
    Orks aren't made of awesome? Except they, y'know, grow to be like 10 meters tall and rip Land Raiders apart with their bare hands.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Narazil View Post
    Orks aren't made of awesome? Except they, y'know, grow to be like 10 meters tall and rip Land Raiders apart with their bare hands.

    Sure Nobz are pretty awesome, but for every Nob you got tons more regular boyz. The key difference is that you don't have a entire army made of such dudes. Though they tend to make it up with lots of dakka and choppa.

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    This sounds cool, but they should have a ability that lets them have a second fear check with a +10 bonus if they fail the first one. Although I don't know the fluff as well for the loyalists (I play CSM).

    Speaking of the servants of the gods, do we have the domains and favoured weapons for them. Also, can we have the servants of chaos stated up? They should not get anything like ATSKNF, but they all have a leadership of 10, so they should get a bonus to all fear checks. As said in the Orcs of WAAAARGH!!! thread, fluff is played up for the developers armies, and you can tell that 40% of al 40k players will play SP, or some percentage like that.
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    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
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    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Narazil View Post
    Orks aren't made of awesome? Except they, y'know, grow to be like 10 meters tall and rip Land Raiders apart with their bare hands.

    Yeah, I'm looking forward to making the Orks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    This sounds cool, but they should have a ability that lets them have a second fear check with a +10 bonus if they fail the first one. Although I don't know the fluff as well for the loyalists (I play CSM).

    Speaking of the servants of the gods, do we have the domains and favoured weapons for them. Also, can we have the servants of chaos stated up? They should not get anything like ATSKNF, but they all have a leadership of 10, so they should get a bonus to all fear checks. As said in the Orcs of WAAAARGH!!! thread, fluff is played up for the developers armies, and you can tell that 40% of all 40k players will play SP, or some percentage like that.
    Hm. Good idea, about the re-roll fear saves. It's a little clunky - I generally dislike re-rolls on account of them slowing down play - but it shouldn't come up enough in play to really slow it down. Not like the ability to re-roll a Spot check (thank you, SWSE).

    Hrm. I was torn between having Psykers do cleric-based spellcasting or psionic powers. Chaos casters would be more the arcane types, methinks. I'd have to do more reading on the subject to really get a good idea of where I should go with it. Either way, the four Chaos gods should definitely grant some kind of domains... Hmm.
    Hey, get outta my head. For the Chaos types, I was thinking of having them be mostly the same 'cept they can take mutations a la d20 Future. I don't have the same access to the Chaos Marines that I do the Space Marines for fluff.
    Last edited by Solaris; 2009-11-22 at 04:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    *Snip*
    Hrm. I was torn between having Psykers do cleric-based spellcasting or psionic powers. Chaos casters would be more the arcane types, methinks. I'd have to do more reading on the subject to really get a good idea of where I should go with it. Either way, the four Chaos gods should definitely grant some kind of domains... Hmm.
    Hey, get outta my head. For the Chaos types, I was thinking of having them be mostly the same 'cept they can take mutations a la d20 Future - and they'll . I don't have the same access to the Chaos Marines that I do the Space Marines for fluff.
    Hmmm... If you need anything, I bet there are several CSM players floating around the playground, but you'll have to make a Daemon Prince template. Maybe make it so instead of domains you let people give different psionic disciplines, and each chaos god gives their own unique discipline. Reflavour the mutations as Daemonic Gifts, and let chaos people roll on a random table (with good and bad effects), and have the maximum number of "gifts" they can have based on their con, if they gain more than that then they lose most gifts and gain the spawn template.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Hmmm... If you need anything, I bet there are several CSM players floating around the playground, but you'll have to make a Daemon Prince template. Maybe make it so instead of domains you let people give different psionic disciplines, and each chaos god gives their own unique discipline. Reflavour the mutations as Daemonic Gifts, and let chaos people roll on a random table (with good and bad effects), and have the maximum number of "gifts" they can have based on their con, if they gain more than that then they lose most gifts and gain the spawn template.
    But make the good effects outnumber the bad. Chaos Gods are somewhat clever, they don't bless with suck.


    Also, seemingly bad blessings can be good. Host of a swarm of flies? Sounds like the directional opposite of awesome, but paired with proper prayers to Nurgle, and you're all set for killing Astartes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    Only non-mutant, non-abhuman humans are Space Marines, so there really wouldn't be much payoff to writing it as a template (even if Ork Marines amuse me more than they should).
    In case you didn't notice, spech merines are a bunch of fanatical warriors obsessed with purity, so it's not a matter of not working, but a matter of never trying.

    Chaos on the other hand have been known to mix spech merines with plenty of other stuff, so we know it's actualy possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    In case you didn't notice, spech merines are a bunch of fanatical warriors obsessed with purity, so it's not a matter of not working, but a matter of never trying.

    Chaos on the other hand have been known to mix spech merines with plenty of other stuff, so we know it's actualy possible.
    We don't know if mutations can happen before becoming a space marine, chaos only tells us it can happen after.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    We don't know if mutations can happen before becoming a space marine, chaos only tells us it can happen after.
    There's also no reason why the emperium can't reverse engineer the awesome Tau technology and give it to their own troops, but hey, fanatism!

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    Rather than piling on tons of little random bonuses, I'd make something simpler.

    For a start, I'd base it off the Goliath. +1 LA for +4 Strength, +2 Con and powerful build. For simplicity's sake, I'd probably just go with Spellwarped Goliath and refluff the Spell Absorption as morale bonuses.
    Last edited by Grumman; 2009-11-22 at 08:14 AM.

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    Before I critique this, I honestly need to know whether this design is intended to be based off the crunch or the fluff. The two are radically different.

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    Default Re: Space Marine! (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    Before I critique this, I honestly need to know whether this design is intended to be based off the crunch or the fluff. The two are radically different.
    Not only that, but also wich fluff is the OP basing himself into, since if you pick two diferent fluff books, SM will still be radicaly diferent. Like, in one book they're being shot down by arrows, on the other they're shrugging off point blanck plasma explosions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris
    monstars (misspelled deliberately, Tem, it's a pun).
    This makes me happy.

    Several things are confusing me because of the setting, so I'll try to keep to the mechanics as much as possible.

    On the racial hit dice section, it says you get "blah blah (2 + Int) x 5" skill points. Is it supposed to be x 4?

    At the bottom, would the soldier class translate into fighter? And the languages into Common and Undercommon...or something?

    The rest has influence from things I have no idea about, so I'll stay out of it.
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    The lines about "losing organ X causes penalty Y" are meaningless for D&D, and the game has no rules for this kind of specific injury (and neither does any GW game that I know of, with the possible exception of WHFRP's critical hit table).

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