Delicious cheese: Dual progression

[Tyndmyr]

So, what all dual progression classes exist?

Obviously, we have Mystic Theurge, for full divine arcane progression.
Also, there's Eldritch Theurge, for warlock/arcane progression.

There's one minor problem with this...a ten level class isn't enough to get 9th level casting on both sides(leaving out ur-priest cheese for now), and also, combinations are limited. I'd love to see an arcane/arcane progression, or a psionic/arcane progression. Sure, Erudite's spell to power is a decent imitation of that flexibility, but it's not really the same.

What other dual progression caster classes exist?

Master list from posts below ->

Dual Progression Classes:
Mystic Theurge(DMG): Arcane/Divine
Arcane Hierophant(RoW): Arcane/Divine
Folchuran Lyricist: Arcane/Divine
Ultimate Magus(CM): Prepared Arcane/Spont Arcane. 8/10 prog in 10 lev.
Cerebremancer(XPH): Psionic/Arcane
Eldritch Theurge(CM): Invoke/Arcane
Psychic Theurge: Divine/Manifester
Noctumancer(ToM): Shadowcaster/Arcane
Yathrinshee(PgF): Arcane/Divine. 6/6 prog in 9 lev.
True Necromancer(LM): Arcane/Divine.
Soul Manifester: Meldshaping/Psionic

Accelerated Progression Classes:
Ur-Priest(BoVD): Become a cleric in ten levels.
Sublime Chord(CA): Go from 3rd level arcane to maxed in ten levels.
Beholder Mage(LoM):Full wizard or sorc casting in 10 levels. Race must be a true beholder.
Divine Crusader(CM): Divine spellcasting in ten levels for one domain only.
Apostle of Peace(BoED): Divine spellcasting in ten levels. Requires all the vows, though.

[Mongoose87]

Arcane Hierophant is one, and I think Folchuran Lyricist is another.

[Doc Roc]

Psychic Theurge + Ur-Priest + Ardent == Lulz

[Edwin]

Ultimate Magus is a pretty good one, and you barely sacrifice any casting.

Though, it does have three, I think, levels where only the lowest level casting advances. But it has a bunch of class features, including metamagic reduction, to make up for it.

Edit: Oh, and it's arcane/arcane, as you requested.

[Tyndmyr]

Nifty. I'm adding in stuff like Ur-Priest that have ten level caster progression as well, because frankly, they combo ridiculously well with dual progression classes.

Folchurian is interesting due to being bard/druid focused. Seems like an odd combo, but I guess someone out there has done it.

[Anonymouswizard]

I believe you requested arcane/psionics?

[BobVosh]

Ultimate Magus is a pretty good one, and you barely sacrifice any casting.

Though, it does have three, I think, levels where only the lowest level casting advances. But it has a bunch of class features, including metamagic reduction, to make up for it.

Edit: Oh, and it's arcane/arcane, as you requested.

That is why they made practiced spell caster, if you do it right you never loss a caster level.
Also use beguiler/wizard to get in. Sad is awesome.

[Omegonthesane]

Nifty. I'm adding in stuff like Ur-Priest that have ten level caster progression as well, because frankly, they combo ridiculously well with dual progression classes.

Folchurian is interesting due to being bard/druid focused. Seems like an odd combo, but I guess someone out there has done it.

Historically, bards were one of the three main types of druid, and the first rules-legal process of becoming a bard in D&D involved druid-ing at some point. So, thematically, bard/druid is logical IRL. Just not in game because of what they turned bards into.

Trouble with Fohlucian is, no entry before level 10 IIRC. Myself I'd have made it a policy point that all theurge classes should be 18-level ones that are entered at 3rd level after dipping into the two classes to be advanced, but WotC really didn't realise how far they were going to go with PrCs back in the day.

[Tyndmyr]

That is why they made practiced spell caster, if you do it right you never loss a caster level.
Also use beguiler/wizard to get in. Sad is awesome.

Mmmm, nice! Are there early entry to any of these? I mean, sure, getting level two arcane casting is possible via Precocious Apprentice, but are there equivalent feats for other types, and how would you accelerate skill rank requirements?

Edit: So far, I think I can just about pull off quad-9th level casting in gestalt by level 20.

[Myrmex]

Sublime Chord has accelerated arcane casting.

[Edwin]

That is why they made practiced spell caster, if you do it right you never loss a caster level.
Also use beguiler/wizard to get in. Sad is awesome.

I was not exactly worried about the loss of CL, because, yes, there's a feat for that.

I was referring to the loss of spell levels.

[Veeda Vidlak]

I don't have my books in front of me, but Eldritch Theurge from Complete Mage advances warlock and arcane magic and is fairly decent. IIRC it has the ability to add an eldritch blast to an arcane spell cast, or it might have been vice-versa.

[Gralamin]

If we are talking about Dual Progression Cheese, I'd have to point out that a wizard with Spontaneous Divination counts for both sides of Ultimate Magus at the same time. How is that for Arcane/Arcane?

[Tyndmyr]

Thats actually a pretty interesting way to qualify for it...doesn't slow down wizard progression at all.

Im thinking, do that, then squeeze in a level of sublime chord for massive spont casting, then use Ult Magus to progress sublime chord/wizard.

Yay ridiculous amounts of arcane power.

[Anonymouswizard]

If we are talking about Dual Progression Cheese, I'd have to point out that a wizard with Spontaneous Divination counts for both sides of Ultimate Magus at the same time. How is that for Arcane/Arcane?

CL 30? That's just cheating. (Note, Anonymous wizard does not take any responsibility for anyone called a cheater due to other characters reading this post).

[BobVosh]

I was not exactly worried about the loss of CL, because, yes, there's a feat for that.

I was referring to the loss of spell levels.

Practice spell caster for your sorc levels. That way your wizard levels are the "lowest" CL. Then you only loss 1 level for wizard. When you take sorc. Er, beguiler.

Mmmm, nice! Are there early entry to any of these? I mean, sure, getting level two arcane casting is possible via Precocious Apprentice, but are there equivalent feats for other types, and how would you accelerate skill rank requirements?

Edit: So far, I think I can just about pull off quad-9th level casting in gestalt by level 20.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...2&postcount=60

[Edwin]

Practice spell caster for your sorc levels. That way your wizard levels are the "lowest" CL. Then you only loss 1 level for wizard. When you take sorc. Er, beguiler.


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...2&postcount=60

You are aware that Practiced Spellcaster only advances CL, not any other aspect of the spellcasting ability?

And as I said, I was not, at any point, worried about the loss of CL, but at the loss of advancement in the spell ability for the wizard side, because the OP's concern was not getting 9th level spells quick enough, not lower duration on spells.

[BobVosh]

You are aware that Practiced Spellcaster only advances CL, not any other aspect of the spellcasting ability?

And as I said, I was not, at any point, worried about the loss of CL, but at the loss of advancement in the spell ability for the wizard side, because the OP's concern was not getting 9th level spells quick enough, not lower duration on spells.

I think I didn't make myself clear.

You can get in at 4th level if you precocious apprentice, I believe. However this is standard at 5th level without it.
1 Beguiler
3 Wizard
Take the feat practiced spell caster for beg levels.
1 level Ult Magus
You are now Beg-4(can't pass current level in 1 class) and 4 wizard
I'm not sure when the three skipped levels are, but I think it is 3, 6, and 9.
so 2 more Ult magus (1 beg, 3 wiz, 3 UM)CL: 6 (1+2+4, caps at ECL) beg, 6 wiz
3 more levels ult magus(1 beg, 3 wiz, 6 UM)CL: 9 (1+4+4, caps at ECL) beg, 9 wiz
3 more levels ult magus(1 beg, 3 wiz, 9 UM)CL: 11 beg(1+6+4, caps at ECL), 12 wizard (tied before current level bump, choose wizard)
last level Ult Magus CL:12 beg and 13 wizard.
Only 7th level beguiler spell casting, but 13 wizard at level 14 isn't bad. 9th level spells at 18 instead of 17.

[Radar]

There was a gestalt Omnicaster build around here. I can't recognise half the classes used, but most of them are dual progression classes of all sorts and there is a lot of them.

[BobVosh]

There was a gestalt Omnicaster build around here. I can't recognise half the classes used, but most of them are dual progression classes of all sorts and there is a lot of them.

Bah I spent forever looking for that. I gave up and used the link I found earlier :'(

[Edwin]

I think I didn't make myself clear.

You can get in at 4th level if you precocious apprentice, I believe. However this is standard at 5th level without it.
1 Beguiler
3 Wizard
Take the feat practiced spell caster for beg levels.
1 level Ult Magus
You are now Beg-4(can't pass current level in 1 class) and 4 wizard
I'm not sure when the three skipped levels are, but I think it is 3, 6, and 9.
so 2 more Ult magus (1 beg, 3 wiz, 3 UM)CL: 6 (1+2+4, caps at ECL) beg, 6 wiz
3 more levels ult magus(1 beg, 3 wiz, 6 UM)CL: 9 (1+4+4, caps at ECL) beg, 9 wiz
3 more levels ult magus(1 beg, 3 wiz, 9 UM)CL: 11 beg(1+6+4, caps at ECL), 12 wizard (tied before current level bump, choose wizard)
last level Ult Magus CL:12 beg and 13 wizard.
Only 7th level beguiler spell casting, but 13 wizard at level 14 isn't bad. 9th level spells at 18 instead of 17.

I'm not really sure why you need to make yourself clear on anything? I am quite capable of creating a build exactly like the one you've got there?

Although, I don't see why I would need to.

Also, I can't be sure because I can hardly read what you wrote, but something seems off.

[Androgeus]

I'm not really sure why you need to make yourself clear on anything? I am quite capable of creating a build exactly like the one you've got there?

Although, I don't see why I would need to.

Also, I can't be sure because I can hardly read what you wrote, but something seems off.

What he is doing, if I remeber rightly, is using practiced spellcaster so that his Beguiler Caster level is not his lowest CL. This means that he can apply the single spell level increasing levels of UM on Wizard instead (well the first two anyway).

[FMArthur]

Well as long as we are including builds that involve cheating in this thread (Omnicaster), Beholder Mage from Lords of Madness is a 10-level class that casts 1st- through 9th-level arcane spells from the sorceror/wizard list spontaneously as free actions with unlimited spells known (seriously) and is actually rules-legal, but stilll gets you thrown out of games. You need to buy a casting of Polymorph Any Object to turn into a Beholder permanently and take the feat Metamorphic Transfer (Antimagic Eye) to enter the class, and Metamorphic Transfer (Eye Rays) to use its class features. Metamorphic Transfer only requires 5 manifester levels.

Anyway, you can enter Beholder Mage at sixth level and it's fast-progression, which is why I bring it up.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm not really sure why you need to make yourself clear on anything? I am quite capable of creating a build exactly like the one you've got there?

Although, I don't see why I would need to.

Also, I can't be sure because I can hardly read what you wrote, but something seems off.

Ultimate Magus requires Spellcraft 8 ranks, so you'd need to go something like Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM. In order to put 10/10 UM spellcasting toward Wizard you'll need Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler and you'll need to be an Illumian with the Krau sigil. The best thing about that is that Illumians are Humanoid (Human) and qualify for Able Learner, so that character can fill the less-than-crucial role of skill/trapmonkey without sacrificing any spellcasting ability. With two flaws you could use Versatile Spellcaster to start out Beguiler 1/ Wizard 1/ Master Specialist 3/ UM, but there wouldn't be room for Able Learner. Versatile Spellcaster would allow you to use two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to cast any Beguiler or Wizard spell you know of one higher level, and note that the spell need not even be in your spellbook you just have to have made the Spellcraft check to understand and learn it.

[Frog Dragon]

Is there a Truename Caster/Arcane Caster anywhere?

[Kylarra]

Divine Crusader gets you 9th level spells in a 10 progression as well, albeit only from 1 domain.

[ranagrande]

Apostle of Peace gets fast track divine casting as well.

[Ozymandias9]

It's perhaps the most limiting PRC in existence, but Apostle of Peace (BoED) has accelerated Divine progression as well.

I think you have all the dual progression casters already.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It's perhaps the most limiting PRC in existence, but Apostle of Peace (BoED) has accelerated Divine progression as well.

I think you have all the dual progression casters already.

Noctumancer.

[Ozymandias9]

Yeah, found a couple more myself:
Player's Guide to Faerun has Yathrinshee, which is only open to Female drow, but it isn't full progression.

And Dragon #311 has Green Whisperer, which is Bard Druid.