Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Results 1 to 21 of 21

Thread: Commoner Lich

  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    Sep 2007

    Default Commoner Lich

    As a random idea, i was wondering whether it would be possible to have a commoner lich. By taking a feat from complete arcane (or having charisma 10 and being a gnome) you meet the criteria for item creation feats, but you still need to be able to cast spells to qualify to make a phylactory.

    You don't appear to need to cast spells at caster level 11, just have both caster level 11 and the ability to cast spells. So is it possible, or do you need to take a dip in adept to make it work?
    Last edited by Rainbownaga; 2009-11-23 at 01:58 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    Jul 2009

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    That makes me picture the cover of Pratchett's Reaper Man.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2008

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    Level 11 gnome commoner lich....

    My mind is boggled. Congratulations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson
    Evil Intelligence is knowing the precise ritual that will allow you to destroy the peaceful kingdom that banished you.

    Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The Land of Angles

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    Spell-like abilities don't count as spells for item creation.

    Or for qualifying for anything. They aren't spells.

    Also, the caster level for gnome spell-like abilities is always 1 - unless they're a Gnome Illusionist, in which case it's equal to their Wizard level.
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2009-11-23 at 04:54 AM.
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Starbuck_II's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Enterprise, Alabama
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbownaga View Post
    As a random idea, i was wondering whether it would be possible to have a commoner lich. By taking a feat from complete arcane (or having charisma 10 and being a gnome) you meet the criteria for item creation feats, but you still need to be able to cast spells to qualify to make a phylactory.

    You don't appear to need to cast spells at caster level 11, just have both caster level 11 and the ability to cast spells. So is it possible, or do you need to take a dip in adept to make it work?
    You could be a Lich Wizard who used disjunction on an artifact and lost all spellcasting, but that still required you to at one time a wizard.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Prime32's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ireland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    You could have wandered into a wizard's lichification ritual at just the wrong time. The wizard can't kill you because he went to great lengths to make his phylactery indestructible before activating it. He may force you to work for him though.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    charl's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Uppsala, Sweden, Europe
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    Well, you could always play as a dragon with commoner levels. That would give you access to the required spellcasting.
    Planetkiller avatar by The Randomizer

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    "Pay me 5cp for shoveling this dung or I'll eat you and your family"
    LGBTitP

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    deuxhero's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Fl

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    Spell-like abilities don't count as spells for item creation.

    Or for qualifying for anything. They aren't spells.

    Also, the caster level for gnome spell-like abilities is always 1 - unless they're a Gnome Illusionist, in which case it's equal to their Wizard level.
    Really? I've seen an Artificer guide recommend gnome as a race for Predestination

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Troll in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    The Greyverse
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    Spell-like abilities don't count as spells for item creation.
    That's explicitly not correct: by RAW, an item prerequisite can be met by an appropriate SLA:
    SRD:
    A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    Or for qualifying for anything. They aren't spells.
    That's sometimes true and sometimes not. There are specific rules for when an SLA will or will not meet a requirement. (See, e.g., CArc 72.) For a lich, "The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher." By RAW, "caster level x," may be satisfied with an SLA CL, so the SLA CL will satisfy both the lich requirement and the Craft Wondrous Item prerequisite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    Also, the caster level for gnome spell-like abilities is always 1 - unless they're a Gnome Illusionist, in which case it's equal to their Wizard level.
    That's the real kicker: I believe there are ways to raise the CL of an SLA, but it can't be readily raised from 1 to 11. It might make an interesting exercise to see how high someone could raise it. One way would be to take dragonmarks (ECF): Least, Lesser and Greater Dragonmark feats have only house and skill level requirements, which a commoner could meet. Greater Dragonmarks give a character's dragonmark SLAs CL 10, plus any ranks in the dragonmark heir prestige class (which is also pretty easy to qualify for). A commoner 10 / DMH 1 would have CL 11 SLAs.

    For that matter, a commoner 4 / DMH 4 would have CL 14 SLAs: go forth and prosper, my undead minion! (But I've no idea where he's going to come up with the 120,000 for the phylactery.)

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    My guess is that the two get applied separately.

    Lets say you're a factotum. You cast spells as spell-like abilities. You have a caster level. Do you count as being "able to cast spells"?

    or, if you're a Warlock, or some other spell-like ability user.

    If you have 1 level in a class that grants you the ability to cast spells, then, even if your actual caster level is for spell-like abilities, you'd qualify.

    So, an 11th level Warlock couldn't become a lich.

    But an 11th level Warlock/1st level wizard, could.

    I think Complete Arcane states that Caster Level, and "Ability to cast spells" are two separate requirements- a warlock qualifies for PRCs that demand Caster Level, but not those that require Ability To Cast Spells.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Troll in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    The Greyverse
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I think Complete Arcane states that Caster Level, and "Ability to cast spells" are two separate requirements- a warlock qualifies for PRCs that demand Caster Level, but not those that require Ability To Cast Spells.
    I think you're right: I stand corrected. CArc speaks in terms of "able to cast spells of level x," while the lich requirement is "able to cast spells," but I'd be hard-pressed to argue a meaningful distinction between those two terms.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    Which is not to say that the basic rule can't be waived if the DM is feeling generous.

    Still, commoners should probably arise as something else. There are a lot of undead out there, some of which retain full intelligence.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Troll in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    The Greyverse
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    Well, my understanding was that most commoners arise as part of the wightopocolypse . . . and they don't need to handle any of the spell-casting, at all.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    I wonder what class Koschei the Deathless would be? From what I can tell, he was one of the earlier "lich-type" fictional characters- stores his soul away, thus ensuring he keeps coming back when slain.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2009-11-23 at 03:34 PM.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Thurbane's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Terra Australis
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    With the right combination of feats (ones that grant SLAs) and items (Rings of Spell Storing, Wands + UMD), a Commoner could have someone turn them Necropolitan, and they could do a pretty passable impersonation of a lich.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Canberra, Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    How exactly are you planning to implement such a thing? As a DM or as a player? As a DM, dropkick the requirements out the window. Say the commoner came across some kind of cursed artifact that made them into a lich.

    As a player you are looking at a highly useless creation - a lich without any spellcasting powers.

    Or is this just a thought exercise?

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Sstoopidtallkid's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Texas...for now
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    Thought exercise, I'm sure. Though I'm going to use this when I DM.
    [/sarcasm]
    FAQ is not RAW!
    Avatar by the incredible CrimsonAngel.
    Saph:It's surprising how many problems can be solved by one druid spell combined with enough aggression.
    I play primarily 3.5 D&D. Most of my advice will be based off of this. If my advice doesn't apply, specify a version in your post.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    A lich with combat power but no spellcasting power may make a quite formidable enemy- if they have good abilities in other things.

    The problem with in being a commoner, is commoners tend to be bad at everything.

    Unless you are giving it the Chicken Infested flaw.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Khatoblepas's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    England

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    Koschei the Deathless, Paranoid and Impossible to kill.

    Human Lich Commoner 1/Survivor 5/Green Star Adept 9

    1) Apprentice (Spellcaster/Anything with Use Magic Device and Spellcraft)
    B) Magical Training
    F: Chicken Infested) Precocious Apprentice
    3) Combat Casting
    6) Practiced Spellcaster
    9) Craft Wondrous Item
    12) Obtain Familiar

    Koschei's Bootknife: +1 Skillful Bootknife, optionally hidden in his foot with a scroll of Absorb Weapon. (Breaks the rules over one's knee, but I had to get that BAB SOMEHOW.)

    Koschei's Phylactery: An egg. It is enchanted with an at-will Control Body, keyed to Koschei himself. The caster is whoever holds the egg. Koschei cannot cast any spells while his phylactery is held by another person.

    This guy has so many passive defences it's ridiculous. He also only has 2 level 0 spells and 1 level 2 spell per day, So he's definitely not the most powerful spellcaster in the world, but he probably could be a challenge to a level 7-9 party, if just because he has so many defences and doesn't die. Koschei should be found preying on young women.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Israel
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Commoner Lich

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The problem with in being a commoner, is commoners tend to be bad at everything.

    Unless you are giving it the Chicken Infested flaw Epic Feat.
    Fixed! Chicken Infested is not a flaw, it cannot be a flaw. Well, only if you use it with other commoners that have this flaw and the character has nothing to do with chickens except trying to make profit. With more then 1 commoner "flawed" that way, it is not possible to get profit, 'cuz you know someone will just give them away for free.. It is not a flaw.
    A wise monk trains both mind and body, but a smart monk is actually a swordsage.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •