Results 1 to 30 of 144
Thread: Disintegrate sucks
-
2009-11-23, 08:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Gender
Disintegrate sucks
Disintegrate is pretty famous, a very archetypical spell. And a total trap.
Flesh to Stone is the same level as disintegrate, the same school, both allow SR, and both are a fort save.
So what is the difference?
Advantages of Flesh to Stone:
1. Disintegrate is not guaranteed to "kill" the creature on a failed fort save, it deals 2d6 / CL, up to 40d6 max damage. Flesh to Stone doesn't care if you have a million HP, you fail, you are a rock forever (which can then be broken to kill you)
2. Disintegrate requires a ranged touch attack, flesh to stone just hits.
"Advantages" of Disintegrate:
1. Disintegrate will deal 5d6 damage on a successful save. woefully little at this level.
2. Disintegrate can be used to dig, destroy unattended objects, destroy walls of force and force cages, etc.
3. Disintegrate can affect golems and other non fleshy monsters.I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
-
2009-11-23, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Texas...for now
- Gender
Re: Disintegrate sucks
Immunity to petrification is common enough to make it an issue.
[/sarcasm]
FAQ is not RAW!Avatar by the incredible CrimsonAngel.
Saph:It's surprising how many problems can be solved by one druid spell combined with enough aggression.
I play primarily 3.5 D&D. Most of my advice will be based off of this. If my advice doesn't apply, specify a version in your post.
-
2009-11-23, 08:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Gender
Re: Disintegrate sucks
Combine Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate. Damn near auto-kill anything, and then destroy the evidence.
Or just use Disintegrate. I personally think Disintegrate is a very powerful spell (Though certainly not overpowered). Flesh to Stone is no better.
-
2009-11-23, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2006
- Location
- You know Bosco?!
Re: Disintegrate sucks
Break Enchantment. Stone to Flesh. Polymorph Any Object.
What happens to a creature disintegrated? You have to true rez them back to a non-dust state.Last edited by Signmaker; 2009-11-23 at 08:17 PM.
"So Marbles, why do they call you Marbles?"
-
2009-11-23, 08:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: Disintegrate sucks
Last edited by Foryn Gilnith; 2009-11-23 at 08:22 PM.
-
2009-11-23, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
Re: Disintegrate sucks
Disintegrate is utilitarian, it can make holes anywhere, destroy a wall of force or a forcecage!
I think it's the only way out of the classic combo: Dimensional Lock + Forcecage.
-
2009-11-23, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
- Location
- Oregon
- Gender
Re: Disintegrate sucks
You can't loot a petrified creature, their gear turns to stone. Disintigrate leaves a pile of dusty clothing and weapons.
Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
-
2009-11-23, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- the abyss (aka NJ)
- Gender
Re: Disintegrate sucks
Do the rules say you die in stone form? I thought you were inorganic matter. It be like killing (taking the life of) a chair or mug. Besides, wouldn't that be a disadvantage if it dies. That means it can be resurrected, were as if it's just inorganic matter, it's in a state of nonliving. Resurrection has no effect.
-
2009-11-23, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
- Gender
Re: Disintegrate sucks
Disintigrate works (fabulously) on things without a Con score. Flesh to Stone doesn't. That's two whole types of creatures, there.
The name is "tonberrian", even when it begins a sentence. It's magic, I ain't gotta 'splain why.
-
2009-11-23, 08:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Gender
Re: Disintegrate sucks
when in stone form you are not dead, you do not register as alive for spells.
When depetrified you are alive.
As for the suggestion that people can cast stone to flesh or break enchantment to undo it... so? if you are concerned then destroy the statue.
If you want to LOOT the statue then:
1. Flesh to stone
2. Break off its head
3. Stone to flesh ("injuries" sustained while in stone form remain)
Congrats, you not got all the loot.
It doesn't work fabulously, it is still a pretty crappy spell. Flesh to Stone however does NOT work on those creatures. So it is one advantage that it has over flesh to stone (which I mentioned)...
Then again, you have other spells you can use on those suckers.Last edited by taltamir; 2009-11-23 at 08:30 PM.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
-
2009-11-23, 08:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Broken Damaged Worthless
Re: Disintegrate sucks
I've always seen Disintegrate as a decent thing to keep in your back pocket. Preparing one of them is always pretty good, since you can always figure out something to use it for. Whether blowing through walls, zapping golems, dusting the undead, or blasting the BBEG for a large fistful of d6s, Disintegrate's versatility always gets it done.
In the realm of pure Save-or-Die, Flesh to Stone is probably superior. In the realm of doing anything else, the Golden Oldie gets the marks.
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
-
2009-11-23, 08:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
Re: Disintegrate sucks
My Current Works
-
2009-11-23, 08:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: Disintegrate sucks
Like Glass Strike. Fort-based Save or Lose that works against objects? Undead and Constructs have poor Fort saves and no ability bonus? Victory.
Ok, so Disintegrate sucks, much like direct damage in general sucks compared to Save or Dies (or battlefield control, or buffs). Your point? This didn't really need to be stated IMO.
-
2009-11-23, 08:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Gender
Re: Disintegrate sucks
Stone to Mud... if you really want to be thorough, purify water.
which requires that you do a little extra work after combat... stuff them in a portable hole, and when you come back home cut off the statue's head and then stone to flesh them to get their items. But you can do it at leisure since you actually won the combat.
I know, I listed that...I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
-
2009-11-23, 08:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: Disintegrate sucks
Last edited by Foryn Gilnith; 2009-11-23 at 08:35 PM.
-
2009-11-23, 08:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Gender
Re: Disintegrate sucks
if it was so obvious that it didn't need to be stated, how come you are the first person to agree with me on the point?
As for undead: Undeath to Death (besides, a lot of undead DO have flesh)
As for constructs, oozes and plants: baleful polymorph into a puppy.
Ah ok, I see the point...
question, is it the only way out of dimension lock + forececage?
Can't you dispel the dimension lock?Last edited by taltamir; 2009-11-23 at 08:38 PM.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
-
2009-11-23, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: Disintegrate sucks
You seem to be really set on this idea of being a trap, but given that it has significant out of combat utility whereas FtS is useful for exactly one thing... I mean the superiority of magic isn't just in destroying fights, it's in destroying plot obstacles.
-
2009-11-23, 08:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: Disintegrate sucks
huh?
Disintegrate is an awesome spell and has many, many more uses than the moribund dishing of damage.
with some creative thinking, it can be used to produce many, varied effects from battlefield control, through to save-or-be-badly-hurt.
some nasty is charging at you? disintegrate a section of floor right in front of them, or target their mount.
find yourself in a dimension-locked prison? blast a hole in the wall.
it's also a nice counter to a lot of other spells, Wall Of Force and Forcecage being the two most obvious, but there are many others.
another benefit of disintegrate is: it's a Transmutation spell, not an Evocation one. making it one of the few non-evocation spells that can deal out impressive damage.
Disintegrate does not "suck". the mage throwing disintegrate around might suck, but the spell itself is fine tyvm.Last edited by sambo.; 2009-11-23 at 08:40 PM.
-
2009-11-23, 08:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- I wish I knew...
- Gender
Re: Disintegrate sucks
The big problem is Fort Save vs a Ranged Touch Attack.
Fort Saves... everything has them. In spades. Unless you beef your DC's to minmax level, two thirds of the stuff in the MM is going to laugh at a Flesh to Stone. And the other third is immune to it.
RTA: Most things have a craptastic touch AC, and you can boost it further with True Strike, if necessary. True, it also has a Fort save for the fun damage output, BUT... it's not designed to attack those criters. It's designed to destroy the third of the MM which is immune to Flesh to Stone.
Furthermore, these encounters, mostly things with no Con score, have little else a Wizard has that can affect them. Disintegrate is a Wizard's primary answer to undead, and unless you have very specific spells memorized to target key weaknesses, about the only way a Wizard is going to affect a Golem.
So, worthless against two thirds of the MM and the last third is immune... or worthless against two thirds of the MM and devastating against the third.. hmm, I'll go with Option B.Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2009-11-23 at 08:41 PM.
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
-
2009-11-23, 08:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Gender
Re: Disintegrate sucks
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
-
2009-11-23, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- London, England.
Re: Disintegrate sucks
Reasons to use Disintegrate over Flesh to Stone:
1. Very many creatures are immune to petrification. Very few creatures are immune to being disintegrated.
2. Disintegrate leaves the target's equipment in a convenient pile. Flesh to Stone leaves the target's equipment petrified and requires spell expenditure and annoyance to retrieve it.
3. Flesh to Stone can be cured with 1 standard action (Stone to Flesh). Curing disintegration is much more of a hassle.
4. Flesh to Stone works on one creature. Disintegrate works on anything. Rocks, doors, walls, windows, unwanted presents, ugly pieces of public artwork, etc.
5. Disintegrate does damage on a successful save. Yes, it's only 5d6, but I've seen that make the difference between a character living and dying. Flesh to Stone does nothing on a successful save.
Disintegrate is a general-purpose spell - it trades power for flexibility. It's rarely going to be the perfect choice, but you can pretty much count on it always being usable, no matter what you're being attacked by. It's a great spell for a sorcerer, as it can be used in so many different ways.
-
2009-11-23, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Gender
Re: Disintegrate sucks
Don't you mean fort save AND a touch attack? Disintegrate requires a touch attack, a fort save, and an SR check.
Fort Saves... everything has them. In spades. Unless you beef your DC's to minmax level, two thirds of the stuff in the MM is going to laugh at a Flesh to Stone. And the other third is immune to it.
RTA: Most things have a craptastic touch AC, and you can boost it further with True Strike, if necessary. True, it also has a Fort save for the fun damage output, BUT... it's not designed to attack those criters. It's designed to destroy the third of the MM which is immune to Flesh to Stone.
Granted flesh to stone is not a perfect spell for killing things in combat. There are plenty of other spells though that do the same.I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
-
2009-11-23, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
-
2009-11-23, 08:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
- Location
- Perth, West Australia
- Gender
Re: Disintegrate sucks
The problem being with Flesh to Stone is that it only works on things with, well, flesh. Which therefore excludes many undead, incorporeals, phantasmal killers, and elementals. Disintegrate affects "any creature", on the spell description. And something that's flying directly above you is surely better turned into dust rather than a couple hundred pounds of rock with nothing but Newton left to work on it.
-
2009-11-23, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Broken Damaged Worthless
Re: Disintegrate sucks
As a fun note, I liked 2e, since you could reverse Flesh to Stone rather than having to prepare Stone to Flesh as well. /randomsemiontopicness
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
-
2009-11-23, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: Disintegrate sucks
The impression I got was that nobody was disagreeing, per se, just poking at the weaker parts of your argument. Reading back there are people that actually did disagree (even more after my post). My bad.
As for undead: Undeath to Death (besides, a lot of undead DO have flesh)
As for constructs, oozes and plants: baleful polymorph into a puppy.
question, is it the only way out of dimension lock + forececage?
Can't you dispel the dimension lock?
Disintegrate is designed to be used against constructs and undead, who will most likely fail with their craptastic Fort saves. That's its combat niche - its other uses are out-of-combat. It's still bad at this because it has SR:Yes and a required ranged touch attack, but it's better at targeting them than Flesh to Stone is.Last edited by Foryn Gilnith; 2009-11-23 at 08:47 PM.
-
2009-11-23, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: Disintegrate sucks
Uh...
Thread title: "Disintegrate sucks!"
Yay propaganda!
You spend the first post comparing it to FtS as a combat spell and belittle the advantages that disintegrate has in out of combat utility, not reducing your loot without the addition of a second spell, and significantly less restricted target range.
You then proceed to conclusively say that FtS is a better spell without actually weighing the two against each either, and use that conclusion to call disintegrate a trap. I call shenanigans.Last edited by Kylarra; 2009-11-23 at 08:52 PM.
-
2009-11-23, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: Disintegrate sucks
I think Saph just summed it up entirely...
plus, it's Varsuvius's favorite spell
and it sounds cooler- much more intimidating
-
2009-11-23, 08:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
-
2009-11-23, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Gender
Re: Disintegrate sucks
Correct, I agree.
2. Disintegrate leaves the target's equipment in a convenient pile. Flesh to Stone leaves the target's equipment petrified and requires spell expenditure and annoyance to retrieve it.
3. Flesh to Stone can be cured with 1 standard action (Stone to Flesh). Curing disintegration is much more of a hassle.
4. Flesh to Stone works on one creature. Disintegrate works on anything. Rocks, doors, walls, windows, unwanted presents, ugly pieces of public artwork, etc.
5. Disintegrate does damage on a successful save. Yes, it's only 5d6, but I've seen that make the difference between a character living and dying. Flesh to Stone does nothing on a successful save.
Disintegrate is a general-purpose spell - it trades power for flexibility. It's rarely going to be the perfect choice, but you can pretty much count on it always being usable, no matter what you're being attacked by. It's a great spell for a sorcerer, as it can be used in so many different ways.
Question: Does baleful polymorph work on golems?I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.