Disintegrate sucks

[taltamir]

Disintegrate is pretty famous, a very archetypical spell. And a total trap.

Flesh to Stone is the same level as disintegrate, the same school, both allow SR, and both are a fort save.

So what is the difference?
Advantages of Flesh to Stone:
1. Disintegrate is not guaranteed to "kill" the creature on a failed fort save, it deals 2d6 / CL, up to 40d6 max damage. Flesh to Stone doesn't care if you have a million HP, you fail, you are a rock forever (which can then be broken to kill you)
2. Disintegrate requires a ranged touch attack, flesh to stone just hits.

"Advantages" of Disintegrate:
1. Disintegrate will deal 5d6 damage on a successful save. woefully little at this level.
2. Disintegrate can be used to dig, destroy unattended objects, destroy walls of force and force cages, etc.
3. Disintegrate can affect golems and other non fleshy monsters.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Immunity to petrification is common enough to make it an issue.

[Schylerwalker]

Combine Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate. Damn near auto-kill anything, and then destroy the evidence.

Or just use Disintegrate. I personally think Disintegrate is a very powerful spell (Though certainly not overpowered). Flesh to Stone is no better.

[Signmaker]

Break Enchantment. Stone to Flesh. Polymorph Any Object.

What happens to a creature disintegrated? You have to true rez them back to a non-dust state.

[Foryn Gilnith]

3. Disintegrate can affect golems and other non fleshy monsters.

That's big. Real big when you're at high level and immunities are running around like mad.

But then again, it isn't enough to make Disintegrate good.

EDIT:

Disintegrate is pretty famous, a very archetypical spell.

Wait, what? Why was I unaware of this?

[Gnomo]

Disintegrate is utilitarian, it can make holes anywhere, destroy a wall of force or a forcecage!

I think it's the only way out of the classic combo: Dimensional Lock + Forcecage.

[Fizban]

You can't loot a petrified creature, their gear turns to stone. Disintigrate leaves a pile of dusty clothing and weapons.

[Berserk Monk]

1. Disintegrate is not guaranteed to "kill" the creature on a failed fort save, it deals 2d6 / CL, up to 40d6 max damage. Flesh to Stone doesn't care if you have a million HP, you fail, you are a rock forever (which can then be broken to kill you)

Do the rules say you die in stone form? I thought you were inorganic matter. It be like killing (taking the life of) a chair or mug. Besides, wouldn't that be a disadvantage if it dies. That means it can be resurrected, were as if it's just inorganic matter, it's in a state of nonliving. Resurrection has no effect.

[tonberrian]

Disintigrate works (fabulously) on things without a Con score. Flesh to Stone doesn't. That's two whole types of creatures, there.

[taltamir]

when in stone form you are not dead, you do not register as alive for spells.
When depetrified you are alive.

As for the suggestion that people can cast stone to flesh or break enchantment to undo it... so? if you are concerned then destroy the statue.

If you want to LOOT the statue then:
1. Flesh to stone
2. Break off its head
3. Stone to flesh ("injuries" sustained while in stone form remain)
Congrats, you not got all the loot.

Disintigrate works (fabulously) on things without a Con score. Flesh to Stone doesn't. That's two whole types of creatures, there.

It doesn't work fabulously, it is still a pretty crappy spell. Flesh to Stone however does NOT work on those creatures. So it is one advantage that it has over flesh to stone (which I mentioned)...
Then again, you have other spells you can use on those suckers.

[arguskos]

I've always seen Disintegrate as a decent thing to keep in your back pocket. Preparing one of them is always pretty good, since you can always figure out something to use it for. Whether blowing through walls, zapping golems, dusting the undead, or blasting the BBEG for a large fistful of d6s, Disintegrate's versatility always gets it done.

In the realm of pure Save-or-Die, Flesh to Stone is probably superior. In the realm of doing anything else, the Golden Oldie gets the marks.

[Innis Cabal]

Disintigrate works (fabulously) on things without a Con score. Flesh to Stone doesn't. That's two whole types of creatures, there.

Gotta say. This is pretty important here. Like, way important...Flesh to Stone is good and all... but its not great. No better than the Bid D

[Foryn Gilnith]

Like Glass Strike. Fort-based Save or Lose that works against objects? Undead and Constructs have poor Fort saves and no ability bonus? Victory.

Ok, so Disintegrate sucks, much like direct damage in general sucks compared to Save or Dies (or battlefield control, or buffs). Your point? This didn't really need to be stated IMO.

[taltamir]

Break Enchantment. Stone to Flesh. Polymorph Any Object.

What happens to a creature disintegrated? You have to true rez them back to a non-dust state.

Stone to Mud... if you really want to be thorough, purify water.

You can't loot a petrified creature, their gear turns to stone. Disintigrate leaves a pile of dusty clothing and weapons.

which requires that you do a little extra work after combat... stuff them in a portable hole, and when you come back home cut off the statue's head and then stone to flesh them to get their items. But you can do it at leisure since you actually won the combat.

Disintegrate is utilitarian, it can make holes anywhere, destroy a wall of force or a forcecage!

I think it's the only way out of the classic combo: Dimensional Lock + Forcecage.

I know, I listed that...

[Foryn Gilnith]

I know, I listed that...

Gnomo's point is that such an advantage is more important than you're suggesting (what with the scare quotes around advantages when describing Disintegrate), and that it should not be dismissed.

[taltamir]

Like Glass Strike. Fort-based Save or Lose that works against objects? Undead and Constructs have poor Fort saves and no ability bonus? Victory.

Ok, so Disintegrate sucks, much like direct damage in general sucks compared to Save or Dies (or battlefield control, or buffs). Your point? This didn't really need to be stated IMO.

if it was so obvious that it didn't need to be stated, how come you are the first person to agree with me on the point?

As for undead: Undeath to Death (besides, a lot of undead DO have flesh)

As for constructs, oozes and plants: baleful polymorph into a puppy.

Gnomo's point is that such an advantage is more important than you're suggesting (what with the scare quotes around advantages when describing Disintegrate), and that it should not be dismissed.

Ah ok, I see the point...
question, is it the only way out of dimension lock + forececage?
Can't you dispel the dimension lock?

[Kylarra]

You seem to be really set on this idea of being a trap, but given that it has significant out of combat utility whereas FtS is useful for exactly one thing... I mean the superiority of magic isn't just in destroying fights, it's in destroying plot obstacles.

[sambo.]

huh?

Disintegrate is an awesome spell and has many, many more uses than the moribund dishing of damage.

with some creative thinking, it can be used to produce many, varied effects from battlefield control, through to save-or-be-badly-hurt.

some nasty is charging at you? disintegrate a section of floor right in front of them, or target their mount.

find yourself in a dimension-locked prison? blast a hole in the wall.

it's also a nice counter to a lot of other spells, Wall Of Force and Forcecage being the two most obvious, but there are many others.

another benefit of disintegrate is: it's a Transmutation spell, not an Evocation one. making it one of the few non-evocation spells that can deal out impressive damage.

Disintegrate does not "suck". the mage throwing disintegrate around might suck, but the spell itself is fine tyvm.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The big problem is Fort Save vs a Ranged Touch Attack.

Fort Saves... everything has them. In spades. Unless you beef your DC's to minmax level, two thirds of the stuff in the MM is going to laugh at a Flesh to Stone. And the other third is immune to it.

RTA: Most things have a craptastic touch AC, and you can boost it further with True Strike, if necessary. True, it also has a Fort save for the fun damage output, BUT... it's not designed to attack those criters. It's designed to destroy the third of the MM which is immune to Flesh to Stone.

Furthermore, these encounters, mostly things with no Con score, have little else a Wizard has that can affect them. Disintegrate is a Wizard's primary answer to undead, and unless you have very specific spells memorized to target key weaknesses, about the only way a Wizard is going to affect a Golem.

So, worthless against two thirds of the MM and the last third is immune... or worthless against two thirds of the MM and devastating against the third.. hmm, I'll go with Option B.

[taltamir]

You seem to be really set on this idea of being a trap, but given that it has significant out of combat utility whereas FtS is useful for exactly one thing... I mean the superiority of magic isn't just in destroying fights, it's in destroying plot obstacles.

I am not dead set on anything. I am saying that as a COMBAT spell it is sub par (not useless, but less useful than other spells of its level or even lower). There are better combat spells out there. But it does have useful out of combat utility.

[Saph]

Reasons to use Disintegrate over Flesh to Stone:

1. Very many creatures are immune to petrification. Very few creatures are immune to being disintegrated.

2. Disintegrate leaves the target's equipment in a convenient pile. Flesh to Stone leaves the target's equipment petrified and requires spell expenditure and annoyance to retrieve it.

3. Flesh to Stone can be cured with 1 standard action (Stone to Flesh). Curing disintegration is much more of a hassle.

4. Flesh to Stone works on one creature. Disintegrate works on anything. Rocks, doors, walls, windows, unwanted presents, ugly pieces of public artwork, etc.

5. Disintegrate does damage on a successful save. Yes, it's only 5d6, but I've seen that make the difference between a character living and dying. Flesh to Stone does nothing on a successful save.


Disintegrate is a general-purpose spell - it trades power for flexibility. It's rarely going to be the perfect choice, but you can pretty much count on it always being usable, no matter what you're being attacked by. It's a great spell for a sorcerer, as it can be used in so many different ways.

[taltamir]

The big problem is Fort Save vs a Ranged Touch Attack.

Don't you mean fort save AND a touch attack? Disintegrate requires a touch attack, a fort save, and an SR check.

Fort Saves... everything has them. In spades. Unless you beef your DC's to minmax level, two thirds of the stuff in the MM is going to laugh at a Flesh to Stone. And the other third is immune to it.

Disintegrate requires a fort save, hence they are also laughing at at disintegrate.

RTA: Most things have a craptastic touch AC, and you can boost it further with True Strike, if necessary. True, it also has a Fort save for the fun damage output, BUT... it's not designed to attack those criters. It's designed to destroy the third of the MM which is immune to Flesh to Stone.

You mean deal sub par damage to the third of the MM immune to flesh to stone...
Granted flesh to stone is not a perfect spell for killing things in combat. There are plenty of other spells though that do the same.

[sofawall]

If you want to LOOT the statue then:
1. Flesh to stone
2. Break off its head
3. Stone to flesh ("injuries" sustained while in stone form remain)
Congrats, you not got all the loot.

Stone to Mud... if you really want to be thorough, purify water.

Those are both slightly more than just the one spell.

[Saintheart]

The problem being with Flesh to Stone is that it only works on things with, well, flesh. Which therefore excludes many undead, incorporeals, phantasmal killers, and elementals. Disintegrate affects "any creature", on the spell description. And something that's flying directly above you is surely better turned into dust rather than a couple hundred pounds of rock with nothing but Newton left to work on it.

[arguskos]

As a fun note, I liked 2e, since you could reverse Flesh to Stone rather than having to prepare Stone to Flesh as well. /randomsemiontopicness

[Foryn Gilnith]

if it was so obvious that it didn't need to be stated, how come you are the first person to agree with me on the point?

The impression I got was that nobody was disagreeing, per se, just poking at the weaker parts of your argument. Reading back there are people that actually did disagree (even more after my post). My bad.

As for undead: Undeath to Death (besides, a lot of undead DO have flesh)

Undead have good Will saves, so that's bad. It's also obscenely expensive. Flesh to Stone doesn't affect objects, so undead are immune regardless of how much flesh they have.

As for constructs, oozes and plants: baleful polymorph into a puppy.

Constructs are immune, because baleful polymorph doesn't affect objects. Oozes and plants are immune to polymorph. And most oozes and plants don't have the mobility to be a threat - fly away from them and snipe to death.

question, is it the only way out of dimension lock + forececage?
Can't you dispel the dimension lock?

Yes, you can; and so that point was inaccurate.

Disintegrate is designed to be used against constructs and undead, who will most likely fail with their craptastic Fort saves. That's its combat niche - its other uses are out-of-combat. It's still bad at this because it has SR:Yes and a required ranged touch attack, but it's better at targeting them than Flesh to Stone is.

[Kylarra]

I am not dead set on anything. I am saying that as a COMBAT spell it is sub par (not useless, but less useful than other spells of its level or even lower). There are better combat spells out there. But it does have useful out of combat utility.

Uh...

Thread title: "Disintegrate sucks!"

Disintegrate is pretty famous, a very archetypical spell. And a total trap.

"Advantages" of Disintegrate:

Yay propaganda!

You spend the first post comparing it to FtS as a combat spell and belittle the advantages that disintegrate has in out of combat utility, not reducing your loot without the addition of a second spell, and significantly less restricted target range.

You then proceed to conclusively say that FtS is a better spell without actually weighing the two against each either, and use that conclusion to call disintegrate a trap. I call shenanigans.

[Caldarin]

I think Saph just summed it up entirely...
plus, it's Varsuvius's favorite spell
and it sounds cooler- much more intimidating

[sofawall]

if it was so obvious that it didn't need to be stated, how come you are the first person to agree with me on the point?

As for undead: Undeath to Death (besides, a lot of undead DO have flesh)

As for constructs, oozes and plants: baleful polymorph into a puppy.



Ah ok, I see the point...
question, is it the only way out of dimension lock + forececage?
Can't you dispel the dimension lock?

Hmm... It appears that Flesh to Stone and Undeath to Death and Baleful Polymorph are more powerful that Disintegrate? Is that even worth my time to respond to?

[taltamir]

Reasons to use Disintegrate over Flesh to Stone:

1. Very many creatures are immune to petrification. Very few creatures are immune to being disintegrated.

Correct, I agree.

2. Disintegrate leaves the target's equipment in a convenient pile. Flesh to Stone leaves the target's equipment petrified and requires spell expenditure and annoyance to retrieve it.

Correct, but at least you won and are alive to go through that annoying process.

3. Flesh to Stone can be cured with 1 standard action (Stone to Flesh). Curing disintegration is much more of a hassle.

Assuming they actually prepared the exact spell needed to cure it. Stone to Flesh is a high level spell, people don't just walk around with it prepared, usually.

4. Flesh to Stone works on one creature. Disintegrate works on anything. Rocks, doors, walls, windows, unwanted presents, ugly pieces of public artwork, etc.

Yes it has great utility. But you can have other spells (like pass wall) that let you do all those neat things. Only thing that disintegrate can uniquely do is destroy force cages / walls. Definitely useful if you have some spare slots, but not the first choice in combat.

5. Disintegrate does damage on a successful save. Yes, it's only 5d6, but I've seen that make the difference between a character living and dying. Flesh to Stone does nothing on a successful save.

True, but you can also miss the touch attack, and considering your class, you have a fairly GOOD chance of missing the touch attack. I'd trade "automatically hits" for "does 5d6 damage on a successful save".

Disintegrate is a general-purpose spell - it trades power for flexibility. It's rarely going to be the perfect choice, but you can pretty much count on it always being usable, no matter what you're being attacked by. It's a great spell for a sorcerer, as it can be used in so many different ways.

Yes it does have flexibility. Although there are plenty of spells i'd cast before it.


Question: Does baleful polymorph work on golems?