Alienist help??? (3.5)

[Sutrahariel]

I must say that I am at least mildly experianced with every character archetype known to me. But when a friend of mine showed me the alienist prc I felt dumb. I can see that its fluff is awesome, but how exactly can its abilities be useful in an actual party?

Can someone give me examples? Maybe a random build to show it off? I love far realm abominations just as much as the next girl, but this prc (the only one that fits that fun idea that I know of) seems really weak. Basically your insane, and can summon little patchy skinned, tentacle beasts? I don't get it >.<

[root9125]

There's not much to get. You're insane, and can summon weird stuff instead of just KINDA weird stuff.

The reason it looks stupid: It's stupid.

[Eldariel]

Uh, you just make a normal summoner. It's still a full casting PrC, so in that sense, it isn't horrible. The class features are pretty ****ty; pseudonaturals are frankly worse than celestials or fiendishes in every sense except the Spell Resistance (True Strike taking a turn from them makes it pretty darn useless while the Smite at least takes no action), and losing access to other summons just sucks.

Few bonus metamagic feats are nice, Pseudonatural Familiar isn't horrible, but losing Wisdom and taking -10 on all social skills is pretty annoying as far as "class features" go. As it requires Augment Summoning, it's quite the waste to enter as a non-summoner.


But yeah, just pretend you're making a Malconvoker; it's mostly the same. Just much worse. Though Imbued Summoning: Heroics (Power Attack) could go nicely with the inherent True Strike, I suppose.

[Sutrahariel]

I see D: thats depressing. Has anyone found anything similar to this fluf wise? Homebrew maybe? I love lovecraftian based things inside rpgs so anything would help ^^

[Optimystik]

Alienist is solid. It just gets a bad rap compared to Malconvoker because "true" outsiders are so much more useful to summon (Su's, SLAs and all that) than Pseudonatural creatures. Don't go thinking its bad just because you can't flood the battlefield with fiends/celestials.

You get two bonus metamagic feats, a boost to fort and reflex, bonus hitpoints, an extra spell slot that migrates up to 9th level (only for Summon Monster, but still useful), you stop aging, and you become an Outsider, which can be helpful for polymorph-type spells.

Pseudonaturals get SR, True Strike which lets them negate concealment 1/day, gain enough intelligence to understand commands, DR/magic and acid/electric resistance. Again, not overwhelming, but better than a normal animal or magical beast.

On top of all that, you don't lose caster levels. So, if you feel it fits your concept, stick with it. Loremaster fits with Alienist like a glove - Alienist helps you qualify for it with the bonus metamagic, you can RP a character that's obsessed with researching the Far Realm, and you lose no caster levels at all between the two PrCs. You might want to be a wizard rather than a sorcerer though.

[dsmiles]

There's not much to get. You're insane, and can summon weird stuff instead of just KINDA weird stuff.

The reason it looks stupid: It's stupid.

Aha...I see. Stupid because...oh yeah! Stupid because it's not a mass-damage-dealing-nuke-'em-all-capable prestige class.

Optimystik has the right of it. It's a storyline PrC. Built for those who want to play a character instead of a damage dealing robot.

Sorry, I guess I got involved in the wrong game. I thought there was a story to go along with the dice-rolling.

[FMArthur]

If the Pseudonatural template actually recalculated hit points, BAB and skill points, it would be a much better class. Maybe Alienist could be houseruled grant those things over the course of its progression. Outsider Hit Dice is serious business. I would force it to lose a caster level though.

[Vizzerdrix]

i love the aging fluff, it reminds me of the futurama episode where the prof is taken to the old people's planet ^_^

[Optimystik]

I'd say it's both - solid flavor and solid mechanics.

Flavor-wise, it rivals the Binder (or perhaps more accurately, the Anima Mage) in terms of creeping out the party and NPCs. It's also one of the few truly Chthulian classes out there. Feel free to hiss "r'lyeh fhtagn!" at NPCs who dare question you

Mechanics-wise, it's a full caster with buffed summons. What you lose may not quite be worth what you gain, but its close enough that you can still feel good about the choice.

I definitely consider it one of the better PrCs in CA for both reasons. It certainly beats Argent Savant, Acolyte of the Skin and (shudder) Green Star Adept.

If the Pseudonatural template actually recalculated hit points, BAB and skill points, it would be a much better class. Maybe Alienist could be houseruled grant those things over the course of its progression. Outsider Hit Dice is serious business. I would force it to lose a caster level though.

I don't think it needs that disadvantage even with your improvement. They still lose the ability to summon ANY fiends or celestials; that's a big enough hit. When your buddy is summoning a Bebilith or Leonal, your Pseudonatural Monstrous Spider is going to look decidedly lacking.

I'd also do something about the Alternate Form; -1 morale penalty to attacks (effectively +1 AC) is nigh meaningless at higher levels.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Aha...I see. Stupid because...oh yeah! Stupid because it's not a mass-damage-dealing-nuke-'em-all-capable prestige class.

Optimystik has the right of it. It's a storyline PrC. Built for those who want to play a character instead of a damage dealing robot.

Sorry, I guess I got involved in the wrong game. I thought there was a story to go along with the dice-rolling.

No, more like "because I summon pseudonatural creatures and take penalties on Cha skills for a Far Realms summoner isn't comparable to what an outsider summoner gets." You shouldn't have to sacrifice power to play the character you want to play. The Alienist does its concept fine in a vacuum, but (A) other generic summoner PrCs do summoning better and (B) the pseudonatural template doesn't really make summoned creatures imply "Far Realm" as much as the fiendish/celestial templates make creatures imply "Outer Planes."

[dsmiles]

No, more like "because I summon pseudonatural creatures and take penalties on Cha skills for a Far Realms summoner isn't comparable to what an outsider summoner gets." You shouldn't have to sacrifice power to play the character you want to play. The Alienist does its concept fine in a vacuum, but (A) other generic summoner PrCs do summoning better and (B) the pseudonatural template doesn't really make summoned creatures imply "Far Realm" as much as the fiendish/celestial templates make creatures imply "Outer Planes."

Ok. I'm going to explain my opinion. Summoners summon what they summon because that's what they studied how to summon (read: are interested in).
Alienists summon pseudonatural creatures because that's what they're interested in. Not because the creatures themselves are mass damage dealing robots. It's perfectly acceptable to play a character who has a storyline that goes in that direction. If my storyline and character development take me that direction, that's where I'm going to go, whether people consider it to be "optimal" or not. I don't condsider having a backstory that says, "Cthulhu" and a PrC that says, "Dispater" or, "Orcus" to be consistent. If you're reading a book and, in the middle, the main character's backstory suddenly changes because it was "sub-optimal", would you see it as consistent?

[Optimystik]

No, more like "because I summon pseudonatural creatures and take penalties on Cha skills for a Far Realms summoner isn't comparable to what an outsider summoner gets." You shouldn't have to sacrifice power to play the character you want to play. The Alienist does its concept fine in a vacuum, but (A) other generic summoner PrCs do summoning better and (B) the pseudonatural template doesn't really make summoned creatures imply "Far Realm" as much as the fiendish/celestial templates make creatures imply "Outer Planes."

Social skills don't really matter here; if you're going summoner/alienist, you're probably not the party face anyway. And if you have to talk to the palace guard or whatever, there's always Charm Person.

Keep in mind that the Alienist actually gets bonuses to communicating with pseudonaturals - if your DM includes one (especially a BIG one) in your campaign, you might be glad you kept the crazy guy/chick around. And he can still hold his own in a fight in the meantime. The class also advances your familiar, who gets fairly sturdy with the DR, SR and resistance.

What the template "implies" is really up to the roleplayer. It certainly does a better job of implying Far Realm than any other PrC out there.

[Riffington]

Alienist is exactly what a PrC should be. Full of flavor. Super interesting. You give up just about exactly as much as you get (vs going straight wizard). This is a good and well-balanced class. If you and your buddies decided "well-balanced classes are too weak for us", then you should walk away from this one.

[Animefunkmaster]

While it does have the bonuses for crazy, I am not a big fan of the penalties as class features.

In other news, the all powerful planer shepherd who focuses on Xoriat, can summon pseudonatural creatures.

[Vizzerdrix]

I just wish chicken was on the summon monster list. That would be epic.

[dsmiles]

You could always "customize" your summoning list. But I think chicken would be a summon nature's ally instead of a summon monster.

A pseudonatural chicken, on the other hand....

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!

[Foryn Gilnith]

Aha...I see. Stupid because...oh yeah!

No, stupid because some people don't like the Far Realm. :P

It's perfectly acceptable to play a character who has a storyline that goes in that direction.

I suppose it's acceptable. But here's the thing - if I want to play a Cthulu cultist, I want the cultist to have power. If my character is a simpering incompetent, it doesn't at all feel like a servant of the Almighty Old Gods. This is an important point, elaborated on below.

I don't condsider having a backstory that says, "Cthulhu" and a PrC that says, "Dispater" or, "Orcus" to be consistent.

That's where we diverge. Why should I be shackled to what WotC sees as what their prestige class means in-universe? My gaming group, our interpretation. I can convince my DM to homebrew a prestige class Disciple of Cthulu with the same class features. And unless the class features are directly linked to Dispater (in which case I would avoid the class), there wouldn't be any problem. I get to play a Cthulu cultist and not be incompetent.

It's a storyline PrC. Built for those who want to play a character instead of a damage dealing robot.

Fauly comparison. The Alienist is still flawed. If you want to play a demon summoner, you can play a Malconvoker - you get to summon all the demons you want, work in some moral conflict, get involved with Celestial conspiracies, and have power befitting one that commands the forces of evil.
If you want to play a Cthulu devotee, you could conceivably play an Alienist. You get to summon unnatural creatures, and... that's it. You're inferior to the Malconvoker - which means that if you ever face one, fiends will triumph over the forces of the Old Ones. You get to be Far Realms freaky, which is good, but you don't get the power of the Far Realms, which is bad.
So if you choose to play a different storyline and a different character, you can be flavorful and live up to your fearsome reputation. But if you choose this particular storyline and character, you have to sacrifice power. And if all your claims about the power of Cthulu turn out to be bluster, because you can't support them due to lack of power, you sacrifice flavor too.

Honestly, I don't see what's so flavorful about the Alienist. You get to summon freaky creatures and be socially incompetent. Whoop-de-doo, I could have spent a feat to get that. And it's not balanced either, because it's still a full caster.

[jiriku]

I don't see why people knock it. What do you get from wizard 6-15? Let's see, full casting, two bonus feats, and familiar progression. Now, what do you get from alienist 1-10? Hmm, full casting, two bonus feats, familiar progression, improved hit points and saves, a bonus spell slot, and the ability to summon a different menu of creatures than is normally available to the wizard. The sacrifices you make are perfectly consistent with going slowly insane from exposure to secrets mankind was not meant to know, and the penalties fall into areas that you can easily dump and leave to the party face.

So, basically, it's strictly better than wizard unless you're socially oriented, which the typical wizard is usually not focused on anyhow. Is it incantatrix or malconvoker? No. Is it a definite improvement on wizard 20 for a character who wants to delve into the secrets of the far realm and summon its denizens? Heck yeah!

[Vizzerdrix]

Bok Bok Bok Bok BLARRRARAGH! sez monster chicken

Don't the pseudonatural's get an good grapple bonus? I could have sworn they did?

[dsmiles]

No, stupid because some people don't like the Far Realm.

Fixed.
Some people not liking something is not enough to justify eliminating something from everyone's game. I don't like the swordsage or the crusader or the beguiler, etc... It doesn't mean I have the right to tell everyone not to play one because some people don't think it works.

@^: LOVE IT!!!!!

[Optimystik]

I just wish chicken was on the summon monster list. That would be epic.

Celestial chicken could be, which would then become pseudonatural to the Alienist.

So, basically, it's strictly better than wizard unless you're socially oriented, which the typical wizard is usually not focused on anyhow.

Not quite. A non-alienist Wizard can still summon non-pseudonatural creatures - that can make a huge difference. For example, an Alienist can never summon a Leonal with SM9. Leonals get a Holy Word roar as a supernatural ability 3/day - that's likely to be far more powerful than any number of pseudonatural rocs and dire sharks.

That loss of versatility means they are not strictly better.

@Foryn - you're being contradictory. First you say the Alienist is weak ("simpering incompetent") then you say its unbalanced due to being a full caster. Which is it?

And saying "I can get my DM to homebrew me a Far Realm cultist of my own" is meaningless. Bully for you, but many other DMs like to have a class in a sourcebook so they can vet it, not spin ideas out of whole cloth or deal with the ones their players have spun. Which is easier to check up on? "Hey guys, is Alienist overpowered?" or "Hey guys, this is a PrC my player came up with abilities X, Y, and Z, access to the following spell list, and hit die d4..." One is a lot easier to get replies to. If your DM allows you to just make up PrCs, why bother with sourcebooks at all?

EDIT:

Bok Bok Bok Bok BLARRRARAGH! sez monster chicken

Don't the pseudonatural's get an good grapple bonus? I could have sworn they did?

No, the tentacles aren't long enough for that (even in Alternate Form.) They just unnerve attackers with all their sensuous writhing. ;_;

[dsmiles]

Bok Bok Bok Bok BLARRRARAGH! sez monster chicken

Man...I can't...stop...laughing.......this may...inhibit...my...work day!

[Riffington]

In other news, the all powerful planer shepherd who focuses on Xoriat, can summon pseudonatural creatures.

Well, I think this pretty much sums up the question of whether Alienist is a good PrC. Is Planar Shepherd a better class, or a more broken class.

Btw I am baffled by the notion that Malconvokers are somehow more powerful than Alienists. Malconvokers sacrifice a caster level. They are straight-up weaker til 10th level when they get their capstone. And long before then, the evil creatures they are "totally in control of" likely succeed in turning them evil...

[Vizzerdrix]

Mmmm. Writhing.

I'd fail my grapple check Imeanwhat!?! o.O


Speaking of the wonderful Far Realms, what other options exist for those willing to accept madness for power?

[dsmiles]

There was an article in Dragon Magazine...(forgot the number...it was yellow with a mind flayer on the cover...anyways)...lots of far realms stuff in there, including a bunch of feats, spells, and magic items.

EDIT:...and creatures...can't forget writhing-tentacled creatures...

[Optimystik]

Btw I am baffled by the notion that Malconvokers are somehow more powerful than Alienists. Malconvokers sacrifice a caster level. They are straight-up weaker til 10th level when they get their capstone. And long before then, the evil creatures they are "totally in control of" likely succeed in turning them evil...

Not at all. Their best ability is Fiendish Legion, which is 5th level, not the capstone. (The capstone is Safe Summoning - allows them to dismiss their summons as an immediate action - and is not 10th level, as Malconvoker is a 9-level PrC.)

Malconvoker is strong because it effectively applies Twin Spell and Extend Spell to your fiendish summons for free; in addition, various sourcebooks keep adding summonable fiends with highly useful abilities (plus you can just stick "fiendish" onto a nice animal like a croc or spider or something to get the benefits also.) Free metamagic is worth losing a caster level for, especially when its metamagic that makes up for the effects of the lost caster level (more and longer summons, pretty much just what the caster level would have given you.) In contrast, Alienist has much less love in sourcebooks.

In addition, Malconvoker grants the planar ally line for free, meaning arcane malconvokers get easy access to the thematically and mechanically appropriate Thaumaturgist.

[Vizzerdrix]

Yes, The Cerebrosis. Two Know: Arcana checks (25 and 28), 1400 gp, -1 Con and a week to drive oneself slightly mad gets you a feat that grants 11 cool spells. either in 330 or 333. I'm planning on it, I just need to get the downtime.

(Also gonna be warshipping an Elder Evil ^_^)

[dsmiles]

Yes, The Cerebrosis. Two Know: Arcana checks (25 and 28), 1400 gp, -1 Con and a week to drive oneself slightly mad gets you a feat that grants 11 cool spells. either in 330 or 333. I'm planning on it, I just need to get the downtime.

(Also gonna be warshipping an Elder Evil ^_^)

Yes. That's the one I was talking about. Imagine combining that with the Alienist...soooo many writhing tentacles...sooo little time.

[DragoonWraith]

Btw I am baffled by the notion that Malconvokers are somehow more powerful than Alienists. Malconvokers sacrifice a caster level. They are straight-up weaker til 10th level when they get their capstone. And long before then, the evil creatures they are "totally in control of" likely succeed in turning them evil...

Do you mean ECL 10th, i.e. Malconvoker 5th, when they get Infernal Legion? Or do you mean Malconvoker 10th (heh, ninja'd - make that 9th), when they get... I don't even know, I stopped worrying about whether Malconvoker was worthwhile once I read about Infernal Legion? Malconvokers get a free Extend and a free Twin on all Summon Monster spells used to summon fiends (read: damn near every spell he's going to cast). That's five levels of free metamagic. In this case, damn good metamagic, too.

Malconvokers are one of those beautiful classes that are worth their lost spellcaster level. If nothing else, it gets major points for that alone - not many classes are. I mean, seriously, what is there? Sandshaper, for spontaneous casters. Recaster, for Changelings. War Weaver, maybe, if you're really going for the party-buffing routine. I'm gonna toss in Archmage as an honorable mention for doing an awesome job of losing something in exchange for its features that's less debilitating than a spellcaster level.

Don't get me wrong, the Alienist is pretty cool. But in terms of power? Once a Malconvoker gets Infernal Legion, there's no competition.


But I'm also going to say... even straight Conjurer is probably better than Conjurer/Alienist at some point, mechanically. I mean, if you compare Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally, SNA is going to win unless you consider SM's potential SLAs from summoning particular celestials/fiends; the celestial/fiendish templated critters just don't stack up against the untemplated creatures you get a level earlier with SNA. With Alienist, you only have the templated critters, now with a different, arguably inferior template. So no SLAs. You're therefore worse than a Druid summoner. But a Wizard, or especially a Malconvoker, can give the Druid a run for his money at high levels because of the SLAs. But an Alienist can't do that.

I think if I were to attempt to fix the Alienist, I'd add replacement creatures for the specific (non-templated) celestials/fiends that they lose. That seems far more reasonable than most anything else. More work, but it's addressing what I think is likely the biggest weakness there.

[Riffington]

Not at all. Their best ability is Fiendish Legion, which is 5th level, not the capstone. (The capstone is Safe Summoning - allows them to dismiss their summons as an immediate action - and is not 10th level, as Malconvoker is a 9-level PrC.)

Sorry I meant 10th level character (5th malconvoker). And maybe I was confused about what the word capstone means. Is that the highest-level power or best power?

But until you get to 10th level as a character, you are not getting anything close to worth a lost caster level. Afterwards, you might (you might not - both you and alienist suffer greatly from the fact that you're spending feats and/or a caster level on the ability to summon, which is dangerous for a squishy character). And at some point, the malconvoker will lose his non-evil status and all powers. At that point, the DM should be nice enough to let him retrain to wizard (and/or make him an NPC).