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Thread: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
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2009-11-24, 02:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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[4e] Using Ranged Backups
I have a question, just to make sure I'm reading the rules correctly. I keep seeing monsters with, say, a spear and several javelins, and the premade characters in modules like Escape from Sembia tend to have something like a warhammer and several throwing hammers. This suggests to me that they intend for the player to use the thrown weapons as backups, while mostly making use of their main weapons.
However, it is my understanding that drawing a weapon is a minor action, and sheathing a weapon is a minor action. Wouldn't this mean that any character who usually holds their main weapon would have to spend a minor to sheath it, another minor to draw the secondary, and a standard to throw it? Doesn't this make such a maneuver almost completely useless, as it takes up all three actions for the turn, forces you not to move, and leaves you without an equipped weapon for a turn (thus costing you another minor action just to get your real weapon back out)?
Don't get me wrong; I can certainly see how thrown weapons are excellent for characters who use them as primaries. A thrown-dagger rogue has a similar action economy to one who uses crossbows (with "reload minor"). It's just that throwing hammers and axes seem to be designed as secondaries, and I can't see how they're helpful beyond a very specific niche. Are they good for anything other than fighting enemies who are strictly unreachable?
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2009-11-24, 02:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
Grab the quick draw feat or get a magical thrown weapon.
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2009-11-24, 02:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
Even with quick draw, though, the whole thing still costs you at least 1 minor and 1 standard action (to sheath the primary and throw the secondary). This isn't bad at all, except that you'll be completely without a weapon until your next turn, unless you spend the third action on redrawing your primary.
In other words, you get to throw something, but you then have to choose between moving and being armed for the next turn. That's not a choice a melee fighter should have to make.
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2009-11-24, 03:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
That is only a problem, if you use weapon and shield or two weapons. Otherwise you do not have to sheath it.
Even if you have items in both hands, you can drop one.
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2009-11-24, 03:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
When you need your melee weapon, spend the minor action to draw it, you don't have to resheath the thrown weapon.
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2009-11-24, 04:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
No, it means that you keep your melee weapon in one hand (you can do this even if it's a 2H weapon), use a minor to draw the secondary, then use a standard to throw it, then (if it's magical and returns to you) use a free action to drop it when you don't need it any more.
Alternatively, use a melee weapon that can also be thrown (a dagger for rogues, any heavy thrown for fighters, etc). It does mean that a sword-and-board fighter is screwed, at least until they get a Captain America Shield from the AV. I'd take ranged capability over a small bonus to AC any day.
However, you will encounter monsters that slow or immobilize you. Best be prepared.Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
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2009-11-24, 06:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-11-24, 07:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
Correct me if I'm wrong, but switching a weapon from one hand to another does not expend an action?
Just hold your melee weapon in your off-hand until you need it.Originally Posted by The Doctor
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2009-11-24, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
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2009-11-24, 08:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
Let's apply a little realism here, how many people do you know that are ambidexterous?
The same applies to characters, otherwise everyone would wield a weapon in each hand and do equal damage with each weapon instead of just a +1 bonus to damage.Originally Posted by The Doctor
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2009-11-24, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
They do do equal damage with weapons in their offhand by default. :)
Anyhow, ignoring that -- you can always move to the new location, free drop your melee weapon, minor draw your ranged, then standard to throw.
But practically, ranged backup is useful when you have chokers crawling on the ceiling 10' up at level 1.
A swordmage who is using a 1 handed sword can draw minor and throw a weapon without a problem.
Small shields apparently can be dequipped for free, then reequipped as a minor, and the hand is usable meanwhile.
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2009-11-24, 08:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
Really?
Spoiler
PHB page 201:
Two-Weapon Fighting
Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: While holding a melee weapon in each
hand, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with your
main weapon.
I don't see anything covering fighting with two weapons in the combat section.
Not to nitpick or anything...Last edited by dsmiles; 2009-11-24 at 08:52 AM.
Originally Posted by The Doctor
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2009-11-24, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
Off-hand weapons are light enough that "you can hold it, and attack effectively with it, while holding a weapon in your main hand." (PHB, page 217) People take that to mean people are ambidexterous, but really only rangers are by default.
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2009-11-24, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
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2009-11-24, 09:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
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2009-11-24, 11:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
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2009-11-24, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
Just a note, quick-draw doesn't leave you without a weapon in the situation mentioned, because as soon as you want to attack there is one in your hand. As far as I understand, that includes for the purpose of making any free attacks or opportunity attacks.
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2009-11-24, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-11-24, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
Even if you're ambidextrous, you can easily have trouble using two full-sized weapons in the same attack move due to it being two full-sized weapons. TWF Rangers are specially-trained to handle that sort of thing
Last edited by Artanis; 2009-11-24 at 12:27 PM.
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2009-11-24, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
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2009-11-24, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
The "Off-Hand Weapon" property reads as follows (RAW):
An off-hand weapon is light enough that you can hold it and attack effectively with it while holding a weapon in your main hand. You can’t attack with both weapons in the same turn, unless you have a power that lets you do so, but you can attack with either weapon.
The "Two Weapon Fighting" feat reads as follows (RAW):
While holding a melee weapon in each hand, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with your main weapon.
The RAW definition of turn is:
On your turn, you take actions: a standard action, a move action, a minor action, and any number of free actions, in any order you wish. See “Action Types,” page 267, for what you can do with these different actions.
So, in essence only TWF rangers can attack with two weapons in the same turn, let alone two full sized weapons, unless that particular character has a power to allow them to attack with two weapons in the same turn.
Now that that's settled. You can hold a weapon on your off-hand, and attack with that weapon, but not in the same turn you attack with your primary weapon.
So, I draw my primary weapon. I draw my backup thrown weapon. I attack with said backup weapon. Now I have to wait until my next turn anyways to attack with my primary weapon, unless I happen to have an Immediate Reaction power or get an OA. Quickdraw becomes mostly useless, except in the aforementioned circumstances (and as a +2 bonus to initiative), as I will generally have the ability to draw a weapon on my next turn anyways.Originally Posted by The Doctor
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2009-11-24, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
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2009-11-24, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-11-24, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
Aren't most melee-ers based on Str- so wouldn't a heavy thrown weapon, like a hammer or axe, work better than a dagger?
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2009-11-24, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-11-24, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
Back to the OP: ranged backups are there so the PC can attack an enemy whoch can't by attacked by melee weapons due to flight or whatever. Yes, it uses up some actions to draw it, but at least you can now hurt the flying bastard.
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2009-11-24, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Using Ranged Backups
Yes. Because attacking with a weapon takes more than just your arm muscles. It requires attention, aim, and putting your body into it. Or, in 4e, you don't get attacks just by holding a weapon and being ready to attack with it.
So when you take a swing with your offhand weapon, you cannot at the same time (barring powers or epic-tier feats) take a swing with your main weapon.
If you have TWF, you can use your offhand weapon to distract your target, dealing extra damage with your mainhand blow.