[3.5] my Natural Spell nerf

[ken-do-nim]

Instead of outright banning it, I propose that it does not cover the focus or material components; i.e. it just allows somatic and verbal components to work properly.

With that nerf, would anybody still take it?

[Vic_Sage]

Instead of outright banning it, I propose that it does not cover the focus or material components; i.e. it just allows somatic and verbal components to work properly.

With that nerf, would anybody still take it?

Yes because you can very easily ignore Material Components and Focus. And if not you can all ways just be something that can still hold the stuff. Congratulations, you've fixed nothing.

[Kylarra]

I have to wonder why adding more bookkeeping is preferable to just removing it.

[Set]

Back when it was first introduced (Defenders of the Faith?), my group had the whacky misinterpretation that Natural Spell was a metamagic, and that the spells to be cast-able in animal form had to be prepared with that metamagic in advance, and, if so prepared, could then *only* be cast in animal form!

We had no idea what the fuss was, it seemed pretty balanced to us. Then we realized that it wasn't a Metamagic feat at all...

[erikun]

Funny, that was my impression as well back in 3.0. Needless to say, I was surprised by the 3.5e "version."

[Radiun]

Make it useable 3/day instead?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Back when it was first introduced (Defenders of the Faith?), my group had the whacky misinterpretation that Natural Spell was a metamagic, and that the spells to be cast-able in animal form had to be prepared with that metamagic in advance, and, if so prepared, could then *only* be cast in animal form!

We had no idea what the fuss was, it seemed pretty balanced to us. Then we realized that it wasn't a Metamagic feat at all...

For that to matter, the Druid would have to leave animaldinosaur form at some point. Mine never did.

[Jokasti]

For that to matter, the Druid would have to leave animaldinosaur velociraptor form at some point. Mine never did.

Fixed for ya.

[ken-do-nim]

Yes because you can very easily ignore Material Components and Focus. And if not you can all ways just be something that can still hold the stuff. Congratulations, you've fixed nothing.

I think it's quite a stretch to say that any of the animal forms have the manual dexterity to use a focus or material component properly. I'd allow it for a chimpanzee, but I can't think of much else. Keep in mind there is considerable DM fiat here.

If the druid wants to also take the eschew materials feat as well, that's fine. Now he's spent 2 feats on this, and that still doesn't help with the focus.

[Mongoose87]

Back when it was first introduced (Defenders of the Faith?), my group had the whacky misinterpretation that Natural Spell was a metamagic, and that the spells to be cast-able in animal form had to be prepared with that metamagic in advance, and, if so prepared, could then *only* be cast in animal form!

We had no idea what the fuss was, it seemed pretty balanced to us. Then we realized that it wasn't a Metamagic feat at all...

Weren't you confused as to what slot it took up?

[erikun]

I just thought it was a same level slot, so you're either preparing normal spells or wildshape variants.

Of course, it does nothing to a druid who prepares everything as wildshape-flavor and then wanders around as a chipmunk....

[Arakune]

Make it a +1~+2 metamagic? Like, Naturalized Greater Magic Fang?

[The Glyphstone]

I made it a +2 metamagic myself. Effectively Still Spell+Silent Spell rolled into a single feat at the cost of only castable while Wildshaped.

[Set]

Weren't you confused as to what slot it took up?

Nah, there was precedent for +0 metamagics, where you were just eating a feat for that versatility. (We used some Monte Cook stuff, like Eldritch Feats, so we'd seen the concept before.)

[Optimystik]

Weren't you confused as to what slot it took up?

+0 metamagic feats do exist, like Born of the Three Thunders in CArc. (Makes any electric spell or sonic spell deal both types of damage, half and half.)

[Grumman]

I made it a +2 metamagic myself. Effectively Still Spell+Silent Spell rolled into a single feat at the cost of only castable while Wildshaped.

I'd make it +1 and castable with or without wildshape. You're only getting the partial benefit of Still Spell and the partial benefit of Silent Spell, so making it the same slot adjustment and with a further drawback seems excessive.

[Myrmex]

Eschew Materials, in Tome and Blood, was a [Metamagic] feat.

[ken-do-nim]

I just thought it was a same level slot, so you're either preparing normal spells or wildshape variants.

Of course, it does nothing to a druid who prepares everything as wildshape-flavor and then wanders around as a chipmunk....

Well I'm sold on natural spell as a metamagic and to provide disincentive to stay wild-shaped all day, I made it a +1 level adjustment. Thus my house rule is as follows:

Natural Spell
1. This feat does not allow the use of material components melded into the
current form; eschew materials must still be taken for that.
2. This feat is metamagic +1; spells must be memorized at one level higher than normal expressly for the purpose of casting while wild shaped.

[TheOOB]

Well I'm sold on natural spell as a metamagic and to provide disincentive to stay wild-shaped all day, I made it a +1 level adjustment. Thus my house rule is as follows:

Natural Spell
1. This feat does not allow the use of material components melded into the
current form; eschew materials must still be taken for that.
2. This feat is metamagic +1; spells must be memorized at one level higher than normal expressly for the purpose of casting while wild shaped.

I think you need to make a choice, is the feat going to make the spell +1 level, or is it going to require the additional investment of a feat to make functional. Both is basically just telling your druids that they should have rolled clerics.

[Zovc]

I think it's quite a stretch to say that any of the animal forms have the manual dexterity to use a focus or material component properly. I'd allow it for a chimpanzee, but I can't think of much else. Keep in mind there is considerable DM fiat here.

I don't see the point of natural spell at all, then.

[TheOOB]

Personally, I just say use the shapeshifting variant from the players handbook 2, in fact I require it in games I run.

[Gnaeus]

I prefer to pathfinder-style nerf the benefits of the wildshape. If WS doesn't turn you from a 6 str gnome weakling into a 30 strength killing machine, letting you cast in animal form doesn't seem so bad.

[Cyanic]

Make it useable 3/day instead?

Depends alot on combat ammounts, might want to do 2/encounter.

[FMArthur]

Revised Natural Spell: Every time you cast a spell while wildshaped, the DM erases a part of your character sheet of his or her choice.

[Anonymouswizard]

I say make it +1 metamagic, and if you let polymorphed wizards cast spells if they have the limbs, let them take it as well. Even as a +2 metamagic I'd take it if I could cast as a wizard in dragon form I would. (If you polymorph into a dragon do you get its SPD?)

EDIT:

Revised Natural Spell: Every time you cast a spell while wildshaped, the DM erases a part of your character sheet of his or her choice.

Okay, when he casts it I remove his best feat except for natural spell. It is the last thing I remove, leaving him with one thing: his old wisdom. I have already removed his skill bonuses, other feats, special abilities except for spellcasting, and all non-wisdom stats above one, but to be nice I will give him str, dex, con, int, and cha of 1. Being mean is fun.

[Wulfram]

You could make it only work for a specific spell per feat.

[Milskidasith]

Because we all know the best way to make natural spell balanced is to make it suck horribly, right guys? A +1 metamagic that works in or out of animal form would be balanced; you're giving up higher level slots to cast in wildshape form, which doesn't help with casting anyway.

[erikun]

Because we all know the best way to make natural spell balanced is to make it suck horribly, right guys? A +1 metamagic that works in or out of animal form would be balanced; you're giving up higher level slots to cast in wildshape form, which doesn't help with casting anyway.

This.

Nerfing it into oblivion is the same as removing it completely. If you don't want Natural Spell in the campaign, just ban it. If you want to keep the feat, keep it useable but with a reasonable cost.

[ken-do-nim]

I think you need to make a choice, is the feat going to make the spell +1 level, or is it going to require the additional investment of a feat to make functional. Both is basically just telling your druids that they should have rolled clerics.

I dispute your assertion that it requires an additional feat to make it functional (though perhaps having eschew materials as a prereq is a nice touch). I left the focus in; aren't there pleny of druid spells with components V, S, F?

Anyways, now that I think of it, I like making eschew materials a prereq. Now it's a 2 feat investment. Maybe that's all it needs?

[Milskidasith]

I dispute your assertion that it requires an additional feat to make it functional (though perhaps having eschew materials as a prereq is a nice touch). I left the focus in; aren't there pleny of druid spells with components V, S, F?

Anyways, now that I think of it, I like making eschew materials a prereq. Now it's a 2 feat investment. Maybe that's all it needs?

Making it a two feat tax only makes druids more feat starved. Instead of making it harder to get but still just as good, make it balanced. A +1 metamagic would work just fine, because then you sacrifice spell slots for the indirect (for spellcasting) benefit of being a bear/fleshraker/something.