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2009-11-27, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
I had a greater invisible ninja do a full attack, then take a 5 foot step away so as to confuse his attacker as to his position. Anybody see any problems with allowing a move silent check on a 5 foot step? Or do you see this as an example of a -20 penalty?
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2009-11-27, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
I see no reason for a -20 penalty
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2009-11-27, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Tampa, FL
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Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
The -20 only applies to running and charging, so I see no problem with allowing move silently for a 5-foot-step.
Last edited by Optimystik; 2009-11-27 at 01:46 PM.
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2009-11-27, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Japan
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Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
I don't see how the penalty for moving as quickly as possible should apply when moving as slowly as possible.
I'd call for a check with no special penalties or bonuses, since he's moving at half speed or less.Editor and playtester for Legend.
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2009-11-27, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
5 foot step is supposed to be very rapid "battle" movement, to change position in fight without giving enemy opportunities, and that's what you're planning to use it as.
So certainly, there should be penalty, but I'm not sure if it should be as high as - 20.
I'd call for a check with no special penalties or bonuses, since he's moving at half speed or lessAvatar by KwarkpuddingThe subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
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2009-11-27, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
I'd say it depends on the heat of the battle. If you're in a relatively loud area, or a battle with swords clanging left and right, I would be hard-pressed to hear a swift step away from me, especially if I couldn't see that which stabbed me. On the other hand, if I was just standing around and got stabbed, I would be considerably more likely to find the attacker.
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2009-11-27, 02:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
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- Mansfield, MA
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2009-11-27, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
I think you're confusing move silently with the snipe function of hide. You can roll move silently as part of a movement or "other activity" but when you attack you automatically end your hide.
Basically, in your position, your ninja full attacks someone and silently steps back. They're still exposed for the world to see until they make another hide check. If your character's invisible or whatever, the move silent check was made as part of their movement before their action.Last edited by jmbrown; 2009-11-27 at 02:25 PM.
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2009-11-27, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
At most I'd see a -2 circumstance penalty, but likely I'd rule it as no penalty at all. Attacking doesn't make it harder to move quietly after you're done attacking. The only real disadvantage the ninja is facing here is that, being only 10 feet away from his enemy, he's not far enough away to force a penalty to the Listen check for distance.
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2009-11-27, 02:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
Since hide checks are part of the movement then definitely allow a check, though even a -10 to their roll seems a little harsh. While it's supposed to be a swift movement, that's really not all that difficult to do over only 5'. The reason for moving quickly getting a whopping -20 to the check is that moving quickly over any significant distance is difficult. A 5' step just doesn't seem far enough to warrant a significant penalty, so maybe something more like a -5 instead of -10.
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2009-11-27, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- Finland
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Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
-5 at most. But honestly, it's a quick adjustment; whatever action he's doing probably gives him a Hide-penalty, yes, but the adjustment itself should carry no penalty, especially since 5' adjustment is already limited to be undoable when your speed is reduced and thus you're doing it to easy terrain. So yeah, no penalties please.
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2009-11-27, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
Yes, yes it does. It's a -20 modifier.
Now, if you do the move silently in a different turn, you're fine...but if you're attacking and moving in the same turn, you take the penalty.
Also, my favorite bit from the SRD:If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide.
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2009-11-27, 04:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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2009-11-27, 04:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- Kanagawa, Japan
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Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
I am in two minds about this, as it seems to me that using a five foot step to move silently separately from a full attack action is somewhat sidestepping (pun intended) the issue of when a counter attack takes place. A five foot step is taken as part of a full attack action, it is in effect a "miscellaneous action non action", so I think the move silently roll should be taken as part of the full attack action, rather than the five foot step. In that case, it seems to me that a penalty of some sort would be appropriate, probably in the realm of −10.
Last edited by Matthew; 2009-11-27 at 04:35 PM.
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2009-11-27, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
Isn't stated anywhere in the skill description. A -20 only applies to running or charging.
If someone spots you and you don't make an effort of moving into new concealment or cover (or creating some for yourself), then they know exactly where you are and will allways succede on their spot checks against you. At least that's how I read it.Clouddreamer Teddy by me, high above the world, far beyond its matters...
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2009-11-27, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
The observer should know exactly where you were, then you move silently on the 5 foot step as normal which he may or may not hear. Yeah, that's fine.
The DM might ad hoc a penalty b/c it makes sense, though it's not necessary. If you count it as moving normally, it's a -5. If you count it as part of a full attack, it's either impossible to move silently at all (can't hide the sword stabs) or a -20 for vigorous activity.Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-11-27 at 05:52 PM.
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2009-11-27, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Sweden
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Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
Well, if you move away and hide (deeper into the shadows, bushes, etc.), then yes. If you just stand still while being observed, then it will be hard to hide (but not impossible if you're clever enough).
I wouldn't say that it makes sense that the penality would be different depending on what type of action the 5 foot step would be. I would say that the best solution would be to try to imagine what kind of manouvre the ninja would do and then ad hoc the DC based on that.Clouddreamer Teddy by me, high above the world, far beyond its matters...
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2009-11-27, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
I think we're all forgetting one very important key factor in this; we're talking about a ninja!
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2009-11-27, 10:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
I was assuming he was invisible or some such and only looking at move silently. By RAW you aren't allowed to hide after you've been observed without Hide in Plain Sight.
I only meant the penalty depends how you conceptualize the 5 foot step. If you consider it as moving normally separately from the full attack then there is no penalty. If you consider it as rapid movement then it's -5. If you consider it and the attack to be one motion then it's either -20 if the move is immediately afterwards or if they are melded together then you can't silence your blows so you automatically fail to be quiet regardless of rolls. When I replied I went with -0 as it requires the least amount of interpretation but I could easily see a DM claiming one of the other 3 cases (-5, -20, or "screw you, attacks always make noise"). In all 4 cases you are heard in your square before the step no matter what you roll. It's the new square where things are open to interpretation.Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-11-27 at 10:29 PM.
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
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2009-11-27, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
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2009-11-27, 10:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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- Sunnydale
Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
The normal (no penalty) Move Silently check assumes you move no faster than half speed. That means you'd only make a 2.5' adjustment, which isn't going to get you anywhere. There's a confusing statement that at "less than your full speed, you take a -5 penalty" -- but you need to move at your full speed, not 99% of it. The official rules don't specify what the penalty is for that speed.
There is, however, precedent that the full speed penalty is also -5 for Hide and Move Silently, if you want to follow Skip Williams in his house rule. See this Rules of the Game article.
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2009-11-28, 08:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-11-29, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Heilbronn area, Germany
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Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
Move Silently halves your movement rate. You can't 5ft-step at half speed. If you are 5ft-stepping, you are going full speed, and you take the -20 penalty. This is not an ambiguous sitation.
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2009-11-29, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
That is your opinion, not a fact. That is not ambiguous.
In the description of "Move Silentl˙" it does not say you take a -20 penalty when you move full speed. I says you take a -20 penalty when running or charging (that said, i too rule that it does).
Also, nowhere do i see mentioned that a 5-foot-step equals moving at full speed, and i do not see how you consider it a fact.
If a spell would half the targets movement, would you also disallow the affected character to take 5-foot-steps anymore?Last edited by MichielHagen; 2009-11-29 at 05:21 PM.
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2009-11-29, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
I always assume the 5 foot step is really just a long step. It's pretty easy to be quiet with those. So that alone will not carry a penalty. But I question why you didn't use a repeating light crossbow from 30 feet, that's a better way to use a sneak attack.
Last edited by Volkov; 2009-11-29 at 05:25 PM.
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2009-11-29, 05:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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- Sunnydale
Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
Well, it could, but it doesn't have to.
Originally Posted by Fitz10019Originally Posted by Fitz10019Originally Posted by Fitz10019When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your full speed, you take a -5 penalty.When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line
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2009-11-29, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- Kanagawa, Japan
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Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
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2009-11-29, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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2009-11-29, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
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2009-11-29, 07:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: Can you move silently on a 5 foot step?
If so you could move at full speed at a -5 penalty.
IMO that seems like the best RAW answer so far.Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-11-29 at 07:19 PM.
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)