Is Ultimate Magus an 'ok' class? [3.5]

[_Zoot_]

I'm just wondering, is it a class that can keep up with other classes or does it fall behind and become useless? One of my Friends was telling me that it can be REALLY broken, but i'm not sure that I believe him as it involved direct damage spells =P

If it is not a good class what would it take to make it playable?

I'm asking because I love the idea of a combined Wizard/Sorcerer (with more emphasis on Sorcerer).

Hope all that makes sense....

[arguskos]

If you use an early entry trick such as Practiced Spellcaster, it's pretty strong. Sorc 1/Wizard 4/UM 10/something to progress Wizard 5 with Prac. Spellcaster (Sorc) is fun stuff.

[DragoonWraith]

Unfortunately, the "more emphasis on the Sorcerer" bit is going to be hard - the class seems (to me) to focus on alleviating some of the Wizard's weaknesses with a bit of Spontaneous spellcasting. That said, it ends up giving you more spells known for Sorcerer, so hey, there's little else that a Sorcerer would want more. The entry requirements just mean you have to focus on Wizard early.

At any rate, though, as far as "theurge" classes go, Ultimate Magus is one of the very few decent ones. Yes, it can work quite nicely. Practiced Spellcaster can be very useful for forcing your dropped levels to go to the class you're not focusing on.

However, you're better off with Wizard/Beguiler, as you get dual Int casting that way, rather than Wizard/Sorcerer. There are no Cha-based prepared casters, so there's no way to get a SAD UM using Sorcerer. Not that a Sorcerer/Wizard/UM is bad, just not quite as good.

[Edwin]

If you use an early entry trick such as Practiced Spellcaster, it's pretty strong. Sorc 1/Wizard 4/UM 10/something to progress Wizard 5 with Prac. Spellcaster (Sorc) is fun stuff.

Do this. Ultimate Magus is awesome. Double the spellcasting, with barely any drawbacks.

[Mongoose87]

Do this. Ultimate Magus is awesome. Double the spellcasting, with barely any drawbacks.

Better than double the casting. You use one side to fuel the other side's meta magic! That is win!

[Tyndmyr]

It's...ok. You can make a good high level build with it, but at low levels, and especially when trying to qualify for it, you'll be pretty gimped. Frigging awesome in gestalt, though.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It's...ok. You can make a good high level build with it, but at low levels, and especially when trying to qualify for it, you'll be pretty gimped. Frigging awesome in gestalt, though.

Not really. Wizard 4 is normal. You lose one CL for the Beguiler dip after that, but for the rest of the game, you're only one CL behind a normal Wizard, so it's not bad. And cheap metamagic is always nice.

[DragoonWraith]

Usually not allowed in Gestalt, though a lot of DMs will allow it if you qualify entirely on one side.

Anyway, qualifying for it hurts much less than qualifying for any other Theurge (except maybe Eldritch Disciple and Jade Phoenix Mage), so from that perspective, it's actually rather nice for low levels (compared to the others).

A Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1 is still pretty good, after all.

[Myrmex]

It's...ok. You can make a good high level build with it, but at low levels, and especially when trying to qualify for it, you'll be pretty gimped. Frigging awesome in gestalt, though.

Ehh, gimped is an awfully strong word. You'll definitely feel the lost caster level, but you only have to suffer through 4 or 5 levels before your build starts taking off.

Sorc1/wizard1 + precocious apprentice or beguiler 1/wizard1 + versatile spellcaster will probably be more powerful than wizard2, simply because you get 2x the spells /day. By 3rd level, though, you're going to really miss your lost level.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

It is one of the better combo classes, up there with the likes of Anima Mage, Arcane Heirophant, and Abjurant Champion.

I prefer going Beguiler over sorcerer, since the focus is all on Int. Beguiler 1/Wizard4/UM10/Wizard PrCs 5 with practiced Spellcaster (Beguiler) is great, leaving you only one level behind on wizard casting till ECL 12, after which it's two. If you felt like it, you could grab (and retrain) the two feats from Cityscape that would let you enter at Beguiler 1/Wizard 3, so you would only ever be behind one wizard level of casting, but that is probably unnecessary.

Sure, losing caster levels sucks, but, like with the Malconvoker, here it's actually worth the investment due to an extra list of spells, a source of "free" metamagic, and access to some of the more interesting spontaneous spellcaster tricks like Versatile Spellcaster.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Sorc1/wizard1 + precocious apprentice or beguiler 1/wizard1 + versatile spellcaster will probably be more powerful than wizard2, simply because you get 2x the spells /day. By 3rd level, though, you're going to really miss your lost level.

If I was starting that low, I'd not take the 1st level of Beguiler on 1. The extra hit point and 16 skills are nice, but only matter if your build can reach the levels where you get UM. Pure wizard, with a dip the level before you take the PrC, is nearly identical, and far better at low levels.

[Tyndmyr]

Actually, qualifying for Sublime Chord ain't bad either. The level 10 starting is annoying, but you only need one level of bard to fulfill that half of the requirement. It isn't perfect(stupid levels that only boost weaker class), but it also grants you access to a ridiculously broad spell list.

The theurge classes invariably are extremely light on feat requirements to enter, they just require some reasonable skills, and casting. Meeting the casting requirements is the only sticky part, generally.

I find lost caster levels are generally quite painful early and midgame. It's not until several levels into the theurge part of the build that the added spells of the secondary class really become useful. After all, sorc already gets it's spells a level behind wiz...adding more on top of that means it's well behind what a stock wizard would get.

That said, if you abuse the feats for wizard sorc that let you cast a single spell as the other class, you can qualify for it while single classed, technically. I leave it to your imagination what fun you can have with that.

[Myrmex]

If I was starting that low, I'd not take the 1st level of Beguiler on 1. The extra hit point and 16 skills are nice, but only matter if your build can reach the levels where you get UM. Pure wizard, with a dip the level before you take the PrC, is nearly identical, and far better at low levels.

I like hide & spot as class skills, and at level 2, having a passive +12 to hide and +8 to move silent is really sweet. It's like having free invisibility. Being able to assist the party trap monkey in finding & disarming with aid another is also useful. With versatile spellcaster, you can keep the beguiler side relevant as you gain levels.

[_Zoot_]

Thanks for the advice, one question, what is 'Practiced Spellcaster' (besides a feat) and were can i find it?

[arguskos]

Thanks for the advice, one question, what is 'Practiced Spellcaster' (besides a feat) and were can i find it?

Well, it's a feat (). It's in Complete Arcane, on page 82.

[_Zoot_]

Well, it's a feat (). It's in Complete Arcane, on page 82.

Thanks!

*shoots*

[arguskos]

Thanks!

*shoots*

*dies* Punk.

No, really, it's a good class, and fun too. And, no matter what people here say, playing a Sorc/Wiz or Beg/Wiz and NOT doing an early entry isn't all that bad actually. I've played it as it was intended, and it's still plenty of fun.

[Myrmex]

*dies* Punk.

No, really, it's a good class, and fun too. And, no matter what people here say, playing a Sorc/Wiz or Beg/Wiz and NOT doing an early entry isn't all that bad actually. I've played it as it was intended, and it's still plenty of fun.

With 8 ranks in spellcraft required, there really aren't any early entry tricks. Beguiler1/Wizard4 works just fine.

[arguskos]

With 8 ranks in spellcraft required, there really aren't any early entry tricks. Beguiler1/Wizard4 works just fine.

Hurpdurp. I meant to offset the fact that without Practiced you will never get 9th level casting. Thanks for the correction in terminology.

[Chrono22]

Not that there is really a point to it.. but does the feat Practiced Spellcaster from Complete Arcane allow a beguiler to qualify for Ultimate Magus without multiclassing?

[HamHam]

Being an Illumian is also a really good choice. It lets you lose no Wiz levels while taking UM and gets you like free Heighten for two levels of spells and other good stuff.

[Flickerdart]

Not that there is really a point to it.. but does the feat Practiced Spellcaster from Complete Arcane allow a beguiler to qualify for Ultimate Magus without multiclassing?

How would it? You're not a prepared caster.

Some people insist that Wizard with Spontaneous Divination can progress both sides as Wizard. I'm not sure how that works, though.

[Chrono22]

How would it? You're not a prepared caster.

Some people insist that Wizard with Spontaneous Divination can progress both sides as Wizard. I'm not sure how that works, though.

Practiced Spellcaster lets you prepare spontaneous spells as a wizard. Beguilers are int-based, and cast spells spontaneously.
It's cheesy, but if Practiced Spellcaster is a legal shortcut into Ultimate Magus, it should work.
I'm not sure, but that might or might not mean Ultimate Magus would advance your beguiler caster levels twice per level.

This is of course all hypothetical. I'd fully expect any sane DM to smack his player with a nerf bat if he tried it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Practiced Spellcaster lets you prepare spontaneous spells as a wizard. Beguilers are int-based, and cast spells spontaneously.
It's cheesy, but if Practiced Spellcaster is a legal shortcut into Ultimate Magus, it should work.
I'm not sure, but that might or might not mean Ultimate Magus would advance your beguiler caster levels twice per level.

This is of course all hypothetical. I'd fully expect any sane DM to smack his player with a nerf bat if he tried it.

That's not Practiced Spellcaster. All PS does is add 4 to your CL to a max of your HD. It's not a shortcut into UM, it just makes it so all of the lost caster levels are on one side.

[Gralamin]

With 8 ranks in spellcraft required, there really aren't any early entry tricks. Beguiler1/Wizard4 works just fine.

Actually, there is.

Make sure, at level 3 (or 4 or whatever is required), that you are ready to go into it at level 4 (or 5), if you had 8 ranks of spellcraft. Ensure you have at least 6 ranks in spellcraft, and a few ranks in a dummy skill. Get a level 9 bard to use inspire greatness on you, and then get a psion to cast Psychic reformation on you. Since the bonus hit dice count for purposes of spells, and through transparency powers, you can now allocate ranks from your dummy skill to spellcraft, meeting the skill requirement early. Since max skill ranks is only checked when you assign skills, and are put there by an instantaneous effect, you now have early entry ready. Not sure if it works 100% by RAW, but it's something interesting. (I take no credit for this - it was actually pointed out by DocRoc)

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Practiced Spellcaster lets you prepare spontaneous spells as a wizard. Beguilers are int-based, and cast spells spontaneously.
It's cheesy, but if Practiced Spellcaster is a legal shortcut into Ultimate Magus, it should work.
I'm not sure, but that might or might not mean Ultimate Magus would advance your beguiler caster levels twice per level.

This is of course all hypothetical. I'd fully expect any sane DM to smack his player with a nerf bat if he tried it.

Er, Practicted Spellcaster allows you to treat your caster level as up to your +4, up to your HD. You're thinking of Arcane Preparation, which lets spont casters to prepare spells.

EDIT Ninjas!

[Chrono22]

Oh, my bad, I meant Arcane Preperation.

[tyckspoon]

Practiced Spellcaster lets you prepare spontaneous spells as a wizard. Beguilers are int-based, and cast spells spontaneously.
It's cheesy, but if Practiced Spellcaster is a legal shortcut into Ultimate Magus, it should work.
I'm not sure, but that might or might not mean Ultimate Magus would advance your beguiler caster levels twice per level.

I think you mean Arcane Preparation there, which is normally used as one of the possible ways around the increased cast-time on metamagics.

Edit: Bah, even when you expect the ninjas they still sneak past.

[Chrono22]

Still, would it work?

[CockroachTeaParty]

I played through the Red Hand of Doom campaign module as a warmage 1 / wizard (abjurer) 4 / Ultimate Magus 7 (or was it 8?)...

It's a very fun class. I highly recommend it. The metamagic flexibility and dual casting progression make for a flexible caster with a surprising amount of staying power (I survived the Battle of Brindol with a few spells to spare!).

I'd encourage the Practiced Spellcaster method of gaining entry, and focusing on the wizard side of things, but I suppose a sorcerer-focused Ultimate Magus would be fun too. Go nuts!