Prepared vs. Spontaneous, All Else Equal

[Quellian-dyrae]

So I know the general consensus is that prepared spellcasting beats spontaneous spellcasting. However, most spontaneous spellcasters suffer from a number of additional limitations; getting new spell levels a level later, fewer spells known, can't add bonus spells to spells known, and in the case of Sorcerer vs. Wizard specifically, the lack of bonus feats doesn't exactly help matters.

My question is, assuming these additional limitations did not exist, would spontaneous casting compare more favorably, or even wind up stronger? Assume that basically the spontaneous spellcaster has both a Spells Known and Spells per Day list both equal to the Spells per Day list of the equivalent prepared caster, with bonus spells from a high ability modifier added to both. So basically, the only difference is the spontaneous spellcaster has a fixed spell list, but it can cast any spell it knows multiple times subject to its spells per day, and the prepared caster can change its spells each day but can only cast each spell once.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, what exactly does "all else equal" consist of?

If you could cast absolutely anything on your spell list, spont is superior.

When you end up having to select certain spells, there's a rather large tradeoff. As for casting stat adding to spells known...wizard only gets that at first level. It's not normal. If you did adopt that as a rule, it would help sorc rather significantly, though.

Frankly, just equalizing the bonus feats and letting sorcs learn things at the same time wizards do would probably be just fine. I suspect that'd come out about equal.

[Schylerwalker]

Well, as Xykon proves to us in Start of Darkness, spontaneous spell-casting does have its advantages over prepared (Read: Energy Drain x 5). However, if a straight up 20th level duel, wizard versus sorcerer, and the wizard had time to prepare? Odds are, the wizard would win. In fact, hands down. Not many sorcerers waste their precious spells known on buffs, unless they're those real generous party-lover types.

I agree that those limitations would severely even the playing field though. If you gave sorcerers say, half their Charisma bonus to spells known (As per the bonus spells by ability score guidelines), that would be nice, but even with half it might be a little powerful. And those bonus metamagic/item creation feats would be nice too. Screw you wizardly jerks, and your bonus feats!

In all honesty, one of the worst things about D&D is that power scales exponentially...and not evenly. For example, a first level fighter versus your AVERAGE first level wizard (I.E., not one who chose sleep and color spray would result in a very dead wizard. Tenth level wizard versus tenth level fighter? I cry for you, fighter. I cry for you very much.

First level wizard versus first level sorcerer? Well, as long as the wizard doesn't get that shield up, the sorcerer is going to riddle him with magic missiles. Or burning hands. Or shocking grasps. Etcetera. My point being, at low-level, the difference between prepared and spontaneous is very noticeable. At mid-level, a little less noticeable. At high level? Not really. The wizard has enough spells per day by then that he can win most any fight, while the sorcerer has enough spells known by then that he's relatively versatile.

Then we have favored souls and clerics, of course. But let's just not get into that, shall we? That's a whole different barrel of monkeys.

[BobVosh]

How is a level 1 wizard "average" if he doesn't have sleep or color spray?

Even in 1st and 2ed if I can have those spells I took em over magic missile. Gobbos and kobolds had a pathetic save vs magic.

[Mike_G]

How is a level 1 wizard "average" if he doesn't have sleep or color spray?

Even in 1st and 2ed if I can have those spells I took em over magic missile. Gobbos and kobolds had a pathetic save vs magic.

Even if the Wizard has one or both of those spells (and yes, they are both superior to Magic Missile against low level foes) if the Fighter wins initiative, the Wizard is dead. If the Fighter makes his save, the Wizard is dead. At low levels, a Fighter/Wizard duel is like pistols at 10 paces, the first one to make a good shot wins.

Once the Wizard has 3rd level spells, or even second, really, the Fighter is probably screwed before he starts.

In general, first level PCs are pretty balanced in all being fairly weak. The melee classes actually do a bit better in most encounters, since they can generally soak the first hit or two. The aforementioned power gap gets worse as levels increase.

As far as actual in game usefulness, the Sorcerer isn't all that far behind the Wizard. No matter how much people post about the never surpirsed, always prepared Wizard, in actual play it's almost guaranteed that some of his slots will be filled with the wrong spell for the situation. There will always be the perfect spell for the moment that he will be happy to cast for you tomorrow. In over 20 years of playing, I have never seen a Wizard go through a whole adventure without needing to say "Yeah, I can do that. In eight hours."

The Sorcerer does lose out in getting spells a level later. The fact that he gets more slots, and that he can cast anything on his list means he can usually do something, if he diversifies his Spells Known well enough. It's not about just spamming damage spells. The ability to cast Haste every encounter or hit every party member with Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace/Protection from Evil/Invisibility etc is pretty sweet. Seldom will a Wizard fill his whole allotment with the one perfect buff for the situation.

So, if the Sorcerer had all the Wizard's class features plus spontaneous casting, he'd be far more powerful.

Of course, the Wizard's ability to Scribe Scrolls largely covers this.

I'd just give the Sorcerer the extra feats as Wizard and call them even.

[Arakune]

Even if the Wizard has one or both of those spells (and yes, they are both superior to Magic Missile against low level foes) if the Fighter wins initiative, the Wizard is dead. If the Fighter makes his save, the Wizard is dead. At low levels, a Fighter/Wizard duel is like pistols at 10 paces, the first one to make a good shot wins.

That's quite obvious. But acording to wotc the real average wizard WILL take magic missile or something, making his chances to win the battle non-existant. But against someone with Int 18 and maybe spell focus (what else he is going to spend at that level?) that's DC 15 to beat and fighter doesn't have very good will saves, so it's a matter of initiative + saves. Rougly an 45~55% of chance to win. The magic missile wizard doesn't even have that.

[Mike_G]

That's quite obvious. But acording to wotc the real average wizard WILL take magic missile or something, making his chances to win the battle non-existant. But against someone with Int 18 and maybe spell focus (what else he is going to spend at that level?) that's DC 15 to beat and fighter doesn't have very good will saves, so it's a matter of initiative + saves. Rougly an 45~55% of chance to win. The magic missile wizard doesn't even have that.

I've never unsderstood the love for Magic Missile.

It's an utter crap spell for a first level caster. 2-5 damage. That might take out a single Kobold. And you burn a precious spell slot to do it. In 1e, that would be your only spell slot for the day.

Now, unlike Sleep or Color Spray, which are awesome spells for a low level Wizard, MM works against higher HD enemies, and it does get better with level, whereas Sleep and CS don't, so I can see a Wizard or Sorcerer of 5th level having a few MM's. No attack roll, no save, hits incorporeal critters, Force damage, not bad for a 1st level slot when you have 3rd level slots for your big guns.

A first level caster who picks Magic Missile is like a guy carrying a musket to the Battle of Stalingrad.

[Volkov]

I've never unsderstood the love for Magic Missile.

It's an utter crap spell for a first level caster. 2-5 damage. That might take out a single Kobold. And you burn a precious spell slot to do it. In 1e, that would be your only spell slot for the day.

Now, unlike Sleep or Color Spray, which are awesome spells for a low level Wizard, MM works against higher HD enemies, and it does get better with level, whereas Sleep and CS don't, so I can see a Wizard or Sorcerer of 5th level having a few MM's. No attack roll, no save, hits incorporeal critters, Force damage, not bad for a 1st level slot when you have 3rd level slots for your big guns.

A first level caster who picks Magic Missile is like a guy carrying a musket to the Battle of Stalingrad.

It's probably because low level wizards want to feel like they can kill someone without the help of their party. Putting someone to sleep is not quite as satisfactory as killing them outright with a blue bolt of pure force.

[Oslecamo]

A first level caster who picks Magic Missile is like a guy carrying a musket to the Battle of Stalingrad.

If stanligrand is being attacked by zombies or dudes sniping you from afar, MM beats color spray(short range) and sleep(1 round casting-you think they're just gonna stand there and watch you do it?)

[Lycanthromancer]

Low-level wizards vs low-level sorcerers is, as has been said, largely equal in most things.

However, wizards get Scribe Scroll (which lets them pretty much cast spontaneously from a much larger selection than the sorcerer will ever have); they can prep (or use scrolls/wands of) mnemonic enhancer, giving them access to far more spell slots; they use a much superior casting stat, and have better class skills; their use of item creation feats is near-infinitely more vast; they find rods of absorption and rings of wizardry considerably more useful (due to having access to more spells in their slots than sorcerers have spells known); they can change their lineup of spells every single day to deal with new situations (and aren't stuck with their spell selection the entire game); and use a system of casting that is hugely more compatible with the spells they can learn.

This last bit is what really gets me; a wizard can gladly learn knock or summon monster I, and they can prep and use them whenever they'd happen to be useful (or, more likely, use their class features to simply scribe a scroll, leaving lower level slots for something more useful). Sorcerers really shouldn't, because they're stuck with a spell that either probably won't be useful for any given day, or that won't be useful over enough of their career to warrant taking it. Of course, this leads to a sorcerer that likes casting summon spells to take 4 or 6 or 8 different summoning spells to cover the range of low-level utility summon spells to high-level battle spells, which doesn't exactly scream "versatile".

Psions do this well; they use a system geared specifically for spontaneous casting. Astral construct is their version of summon monster, and it emulates EVERY summon monster spell, I-IX, and does so without being uber-powerful (though it is incredibly useful and is powerful enough to give a good punch in many encounters). They also use Int as their casting stat, have great class skills, their powers scale incredibly well, and they can use psychic reformation to keep from being stuck with abilities that were useful early on but are crap now.

They still don't have all the great items that wizards get, but they have some niceties of their own.

You want a spontaneous caster? Use a psion.

[Tyndmyr]

As far as actual in game usefulness, the Sorcerer isn't all that far behind the Wizard. No matter how much people post about the never surpirsed, always prepared Wizard, in actual play it's almost guaranteed that some of his slots will be filled with the wrong spell for the situation. There will always be the perfect spell for the moment that he will be happy to cast for you tomorrow. In over 20 years of playing, I have never seen a Wizard go through a whole adventure without needing to say "Yeah, I can do that. In eight hours."

This is true. However, I've often seen a sorcerer say that he doesn't know a spell to do that. It's the same basic problem.

[Mike_G]

If stanligrand is being attacked by zombies or dudes sniping you from afar, MM beats color spray(short range) and sleep(1 round casting-you think they're just gonna stand there and watch you do it?)

A 1st level Wizard who cast magic Missile at the Zombie is unlikely to kill it anyway. 2-5 points just doesn't seem to justify blowing your higest level spell. He's better off running away and letting his buddies hack it up.

Now, as I said earlier, it's not a bad spell for a high level caster to fill those 1st level slots with, since Sleep won't affect high HD creatures, and you get more missiles as you level, plus the whole auto-hit, no save thing. It's only a terrible spell for the 1st level guy. Your light crossbow is about as good against distant snipers.

Look at the options for a 1st level Wizard/Sorcerer. Sleep can drop 4 Kobolds/Goblins/Orcs, etc. It's long range, 10' burst, you can probably hit multiple bad guys and they are unlikely to save. Beats the crap out of maybe, just maybe dropping one bad guy on a real good damage roll. The Fighter can one-shot 1HD mooks much better than that. he can't AoE a bunch of them.

And the first level Wizard should have a first level Fighter between him and the enemy to absorb the sniper fire or chop up the zombie, or a 1st level cleric to turn it. Wizards, even the Schrodinger's Batman Tippy-fied Wizards this board so adores, cannot expect to survive solo at level 1. I'd much rather have my party caster have Sleep availible and cover for him versus undead than have Magic Missile, which really amounts to Give The Orc a Hangnail once a day.

This is true. However, I've often seen a sorcerer say that he doesn't know a spell to do that. It's the same basic problem.

Absolutely. That's why I said the Sorcerer isn't far behind the Wizard. I didn't say he's better.

Generally, when I've played Sorcerers, I try to take some buffs, some attacks, and buy some scrolls or wands for the once in a while utility stuff. A Sorcerer generally has a spell that can do something, even if it isn't the perfect spell. The Wizard may well have already spent that spell, and unlike the Sorcerer, may have his slots locked up with spells that are of no use in a given situation.

The two classes are closer than people give credit for. The biggest advantages of Wizards are, most importantly, getting the next spell level earlier, and the ability to scribe scrolls to cover the gaps. Give those features to Sorcerers and I think they are equal, at least.

[Oslecamo]

However, wizards get Scribe Scroll (which lets them pretty much cast spontaneously from a much larger selection than the sorcerer will ever have)

...
You want a spontaneous caster? Use a psion.

Your whole logic is based on the fact that the wizard has acess to a scroll'r'us and the sorceror doesn't. Wich is very flawed.

What's stoping the sorceror from going to yer old shop and stacking up on utility scrolls and wands? He just needs to learn the spells he'll regularly use. For everything else, he pulls out an item, just like the wizard!

Blah blah wizards get scribe scroll for free, but they still need to buy scrolls from somewhere to learn more spells than normal.

The sorceror meanwhile can use his high charisma to much better manipulate minions at low levels. Pick up leadership and go to town with the best cohort charisma can buy. The wizard will need days to persuade that monster in biding. The sorceror will probably suceed at the first try.

You want to play a caster and not mr.magic item? Don't play wizards.

[Tyndmyr]

Yes, a sorcerer can buy scrolls. However, it costs him twice as much(the xp component is negligible for low level scrolls). This is a significant disadvantage. Also, he's subject to local availability, which can suck at times. If he wishes to negate this, he has to spend a precious feat. It's a pretty noticeable difference, especially when you add in the other bonus feats a wizard gets.

In terms of spell volume, compare a focused specialist wizard(which still has vastly more options than the sorc) to a sorcerer. They end up pretty much the same in spell volume on even levels, but the wizard still has the one level earlier advantage.

Edit: Yes, charisma is nice, but as a casting stat, int is still better. More skills are keyed to it, and getting more ranks of it results in more skills.

[Volkov]

If stanligrand is being attacked by zombies or dudes sniping you from afar, MM beats color spray(short range) and sleep(1 round casting-you think they're just gonna stand there and watch you do it?)

Stalingrad is now Volgograd, and if D&D Zombies were to attack it, they would be bombed into the nine hells, then back to the seven heavens, then back to prime by Russian bombers. And also, a sniper rifle outranges magic missile, or pretty much any other spell. 1 and 1/2 mile range> 1,200 foot range at best.

Any way, sorcerer's are pretty bad. I typically add three to their number of spells per day and spells known for each of their levels, allowing them six 9th level spells known, nine 9th level spells per day and so on. I also allow Cha to add to spells known as well, It helps greatly

[Kalirren]

I think this debate is missing out on one of the most fundamentally advatageous facets of spontaneous spellcasting:

Preptime.

I -hate- preparing spells. Either I spend time doing it before session, which is sort of silly, or I spend time doing it during session, which is gauche.

The above notwithstanding, I agree that prepared casting is generally stronger than spontaneous spellcasting, and that the 3.x designers greatly overestimated the utility of spontaneous spellcasting in comparison to prepared when they decided to gimp sorcerers with no bonus spells known to Cha and no bonus feats and slower progression by level. If those things were evened out, I'd probably play spontaneous casters always, but I wonder if prepared casters would still be stronger. I guess that answer would depend upon what sort of ambient scroll economy there were in relation to the prevalence of runestaves.

[Mike_G]

I think this debate is missing out on one of the most fundamentally advatageous facets of spontaneous spellcasting:

Preptime.

I -hate- preparing spells. Either I spend time doing it before session, which is sort of silly, or I spend time doing it during session, which is gauche.

I agree.

I don't play prepared casters because I hate preparing. I am more than willing to choose my "Spells Known" once, cover my bases and be done with it, than try to decide how many Haste versus Fly spells for the day.

I also think that party planning is easier with a Sorcerer. The party should be familiar with his Spells Known, and know what they can expect him to do and what they need to cover for. With a Wizard, that changes every day.

That said, the ability to Scribe anything on your list does help a Wizard cover for what he didn't prepare.

[sonofzeal]

Any way, sorcerer's are pretty bad. I typically add three to their number of spells per day and spells known for each of their levels, allowing them six 9th level spells known, nine 9th level spells per day and so on. I also allow Cha to add to spells known as well, It helps greatly

That's..... wow. Wow. Uh, are you DMing online and can I play a Sorcerer?


Do you boost everyone else out the wazzoo too?

[Volkov]

That's..... wow. Wow. Uh, are you DMing online and can I play a Sorcerer?


Do you boost everyone else out the wazzoo too?

I try to ensure that the crappy classes are usable.

[Mike_G]

I try to ensure that the crappy classes are usable.

If you give out that kind of boost to Sorcerers, what do Monks get? A free Gold Dragon animal companion?

[Tyndmyr]

I think this debate is missing out on one of the most fundamentally advatageous facets of spontaneous spellcasting:

Preptime.

I -hate- preparing spells. Either I spend time doing it before session, which is sort of silly, or I spend time doing it during session, which is gauche.

Playwise, I actually agree. I have different, mostly standardized spell loadouts that I customize for the situation, and I have the advantage of a relatively decent amount of memorized spells. I would never, ever advise a new player to take wizard simply for this reason. Way too much prep time.

Hell, even now, after playing for practically forever, I don't generally take spells like polymorph because I can't be bothered to dig through the monster manual.

[Morty]

I really think people are treating it way too seriously here. Yeah, Wizard is probably more powerful than Sorcerer on the whole, but what difference does it make in the long run? Sorcerer is still an arcane spellcaster, which means he'll be useful enough on low-to-mid levels and way ahead of most other classes in mid-to-high levels. I see no problem here.

[sonofzeal]

I try to ensure that the crappy classes are usable.

....you do realize that default Sorcs are solidly in the top 10 most powerful classes in the game, right?

[Volkov]

If you give out that kind of boost to Sorcerers, what do Monks get? A free Gold Dragon animal companion?

Just a fighter's BAB.

[Volkov]

....you do realize that default Sorcs are solidly in the top 10 most powerful classes in the game, right?

They don't last long in my campaigns without a large spell selection.

[Boci]

Just a fighter's BAB.

That's not much. Full BAB and h10 hit die doesn't solve any of the monk's problems.

[Tyndmyr]

....you do realize that default Sorcs are solidly in the top 10 most powerful classes in the game, right?

The entire game? I wouldn't say so. You have the entire classic tier 1 selection hogging six slots alone.

They're good, and there is certainly a large selection of weaker classes, but top ten is quite questionable.


Edit: Also, yes...full BaB alone doesn't fix a monk. It helps a great deal, yes, you'd still be better off going fighter or something.

[Volkov]

That's not much. Full BAB and h10 hit die doesn't solve any of the monk's problems.

And what would those be?

[Tyndmyr]

Let's not turn this into a monk thread, please?

[Boci]

And what would those be?

It has a load of class features that are either useless (slow fall), horribly limited (abundant step only once per day) or go conuter to its role (full round attack required for FoB when its supose to be a skirmisher)