First level optimizing

[Mike_G]

I was thinking, many of the suggested builds are all for 20th level, and feats, classes etc listed with that in mind.

So, I wondered, if the object was to build a first level PC, with the goal being surviving to become a second level PC, would the same theories apply.

For example, take Feat selection. Many of the Feats that earn the most contempt are actually pretty useful for the Ftr 1 battling orcs, gobbos and kobolds. All else being equal, a Ftr 1 is better off with a Longsword and large shield, and Weapon Focus over Greatsword and Power Attack.

Bear with me. Ftr A, who goes Sword and Board will have an AC two points higher, thus getting hit 10% less often, and with WF will hit 5% more often than Ftr B. This may not sound like much, but when you are only a few hits from death, that extra 10% miss chance means a lot. You might even wnat to take Dodge.

But what about damage? Isn't Power attack the only way to ensure that you do enough? Well, yes, eventually. At first level, you only have 1 point of BAB to put in PA, and anything of appropriate CR should be well within you average damage without that extra point or two. I definitely would pick up PA soon, but not at first level. It's overkill for the wimpy stuff, but not enough extra for any big stuff that a sadistic DM might throw at you.

So, lets assume Human, with 18 STR, 12 Dex and Scale armor.

Ftr A, with his longsword and WF has +6 to hit and does 1d8+4, avgerage of 8.5 His AC is 18

Ftr B with Greatsword and PA has +5 (or +4) to hit and does 2d6+6 (or +8) Average of 13 (15). His AC is 16

This looks like a win for Ftr B, unless you put them both against a 14 AC Orc with 5 HP. Both can't help but one-shot the Orc, which Ftr A will do 5% more often. Both will be badly hurt, and maybe dropped by a hit from the Orc, but that happens to Ftr A 10% less often.

So, looked at that way, I think some of the concepts in 3e design seem less like "traps" than as "stuff for the low levels."

[PairO'Dice Lost]

So, looked at that way, I think some of the concepts in 3e design seem less like "traps" than as "stuff for the low levels."

The problem is that that "stuff for low levels" turns into "horrible trap options" after just a few levels, with no option for retraining existing until PHB2. That's exactly the reason many builds are planned out through level 10-20 (with most theoretical builds being to 20 and most "help me with X" ones being 10-15)--if you take at 1st level which best gets you to 2nd level, and at 2nd level which best gets you to 3rd level, and at 3rd level which best gets you to 4th level, and so on, by around 7th you're going to be noticeably behind.

[Deastorm]

Toughness.

What?

[ex cathedra]

So... you don't need this?

You fail to mention both of his other feats, which can alter a few things, and there are CR1 enemies that aren't Orcs. In some instances, you are correct, however.

I don't like starting at level one, however. Honestly, 3 and 4 are much more reasonable for everyone involved.

[Saph]

Pretty much. For example, people on these boards talk about the power of Wizards a lot. But when I was building a 2nd-level party for the Test of Might challenges a while back, I picked a Duskblade rather than a Wizard for my party arcanist.

Why? Because a 2nd-level Duskblade has as many first-level spells per day as a specialist wizard, and has enough of the good 1st-level choices that he's very nearly on par with the Wizard as a primary arcanist. In addition, he has better HP, better AC, better saves, and he's also a competent melee fighter. A Wizard may be stronger at high levels, but how strong you are at high levels isn't very important if you're never going to get there.

[Tengu_temp]

With a wolf animal companion, a druid owns level 1 just like he owns level 20.

[Glimbur]

Would you like to make ranged touch attacks for 3d6 at first level?

Would you like Medium Armor and Shield proficiency?

Would you like to learn a new system of power?

Try the Incarnate from Magic of Incarnum. Take Improved Soulmeld Capacity and Shape Soumeld: Wormtail Belt on a first level Azurin (race from the book). Shape Dissolving Spittle with Improved Soulmeld Capacity. Put 2 essentia in to it. Enjoy your 3d6 all day.

[Gnaeus]

For another good example, look at multiclassing. At high levels, you REALLY want pure casters. But a Cleric 1, Wizard 1 is much stronger (better saves, more hp, more spells per day from a bigger selection, better class abilities) than a Wizard 2. I have a DM who allows his players to retrain their most recent level every time they level up, to allow us to reach strong builds without being lured away by "but I need this now" pittraps.

[erikun]

I've seen first level fighters (or human barbarians) get great mileage out of Power Attack/Cleave at first level. I've also seen them survive just fine with a greatsword. Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) and Combat Reflexes are both available at first level, as are Improved Initiative and Enchew Materials.

Of course, even a sword-and-board fighter can get some use out of Cleave, or Combat Reflexes, or even Improved Trip. And if we're using retraining rules, then it doesn't ultimately matter much, as you can pick up Shield Proficiency, etc. and simply change it later.

[Myrmex]

Cleave works nicely at low levels.

Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian with power attack and cleave can mess a lot of faces up 1 encounter/day.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Level 1:

Warforged Crusader

High Str, high Con

Maneuvers: Crusader's Strike, Stone Bones, 3 others to taste
Stance: Martial Spirit

Feat: Adamantine Body

Pretty invincible at 1st level. Not the best, but Crusader will also see you solidly through all 20 levels, so there are worse options out there.

[Myrmex]

Strongheart halfling fighter on a riding dog with a lance and spirited charge.

[erikun]

There was a thread in here a long time ago, which asked what class levels (from core) a character would take if they focused solely on the best option at each level. There was quite a bit of discussion on the particulars, but almost everyone thought it would be a mostly-Cleric build or mostly-Druid build.

[Myrmex]

There was a thread in here a long time ago, which asked what class levels (from core) a character would take if they focused solely on the best option at each level. There was quite a bit of discussion on the particulars, but almost everyone thought it would be a mostly-Cleric build or mostly-Druid build.

The worst was wizard, wasn't it?

[erikun]

The worst was wizard, wasn't it?

Yep, because Wizard 1 was terrible at survival (especially by themselves) and taking a single level of Wizard was even worse at higher levels. Which seems more practical, trying to put an orc to Sleep and then coup-de-grace if it works, or raging and likely killing the orc outright?

For the record, here's what I thought the most likely.

Barbarian 1
Druid 1
Cleric 1
Druid X

A possible 2nd level of Barbarian somewhere, when Uncanny Dodge becomes relevant. It actually looks rather playable, too, as Barbarian 2/Cleric 1/Druid 17 is still decent and has a few good abilities to fall back on.

For races, I think Human and Dwarf stood out, although Strongheart Halfling was also a good choice (especially for those championing the Rogue classes).

[Myrmex]

I'd think Barbarian 1, followed by Druid 19 would be best. Out of everything in Core, a barbarian will have huge HD, the ability to rage (which can be as much as a 100% increase in damage at first level, and a 75% increase in to hit!), and decent skills. The next best option is druid, with healing & a pet, followed by more spells and better pet options.

[erikun]

I chose Cleric 1 over Druid 2 because Cleric grants you 5 new spell slots and domain bonuses, while Druid 2 only gets two new spell slots (animal companion doesn't change from Druid 1 > Druid 2). From there, though, Druid 2 offered better skill selection than Cleric 2. After that, the choices became obvious.

Back to the topic at hand, should we try something similar to determine the "best first level feat"? Obviously, it will depend a lot on the choice of class. Not everyone needs Improved Initiative equally, or gets any use from Enshew Materials. For that matter, race can become important. A Human Barbarian would likely use Power Attack/Cleave with a greatsword, but a Dwarven Barbarian would be more inclined towards a dwarven waraxe and shield.

[Wings of Peace]

I'm afb right now if anyone wants to look into it before I do. I recall there being a first level Jesus build over on the WoTC forums before the move that abused Stigmata for constant healing in the 10s at level 1.

[Tyndmyr]

A Wizard may be stronger at high levels, but how strong you are at high levels isn't very important if you're never going to get there.

This. I've picked many an option thats subpar at twenty simply because...if I get to twenty, I'll be badass either way. Ridiculously so, as compared to a rotting level one corpse in the gutter.

Toughness is actually decent at level 1-2. It quickly becomes subpar, but a few extra hp actually forms a pretty good percentage of your total health in the early levels.

I do love games with retraining, as they allow you to enjoy all levels to a greater degree without having to make quite so many hard decisions. As for examples of level one optimization, I'd point you at the arena. It's got some pretty solid builds, to the point where some matches are rather rocket-tag like in nature.

[Boci]

Yep, because Wizard 1 was terrible at survival (especially by themselves) and taking a single level of Wizard was even worse at higher levels. Which seems more practical, trying to put an orc to Sleep and then coup-de-grace if it works, or raging and likely killing the orc outright?

A specialist wizard with a semi decent int score can cast 3 1st level spells, let say two of them are colour spray. A barbarian has 1 rage per day.

[Myrmex]

A specialist wizard with a semi decent int score can cast 3 1st level spells, let say two of them are colour spray. A barbarian has 1 rage per day.

Throw in precocious apprentice, and you get a web or something, 0.65 times per day, too.

[Boci]

Throw in precocious apprentice, and you get a web or something, 0.65 times per day, too.

Arcane mastery and you've got it once per day.

[Wings of Peace]

This. I've picked many an option thats subpar at twenty simply because...if I get to twenty, I'll be badass either way. Ridiculously so, as compared to a rotting level one corpse in the gutter.

Toughness is actually decent at level 1-2. It quickly becomes subpar, but a few extra hp actually forms a pretty good percentage of your total health in the early levels.

I do love games with retraining, as they allow you to enjoy all levels to a greater degree without having to make quite so many hard decisions. As for examples of level one optimization, I'd point you at the arena. It's got some pretty solid builds, to the point where some matches are rather rocket-tag like in nature.

Which arena do you mean out of curiosity?

[HCL]

Fighter? We don't use fighters here!

http://www.coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=7425

[ericgrau]

Bear with me. Ftr A, who goes Sword and Board will have an AC two points higher, thus getting hit 10% less often, and with WF will hit 5% more often than Ftr B. This may not sound like much, but when you are only a few hits from death, that extra 10% miss chance means a lot. You might even wnat to take Dodge.

20-30% less often, actually. He's already only getting hit 1/4-1/2 of the time. Going from 25-50% to 15-40% means he just negated 1/5-1/3 of the hits that used to land. And it's the same amount at all levels, given some basic optimization. More with enchanted shields. But then you might not want the defense for other reasons, it all depends. Not gonna take that tangent farther.

I did a level 1 arena challenge a long time ago, but it got cut short. I just remember that the fighter/barbarian(s) outdid the wizard(s) by a good margin, but I don't remember how the druid did. I think he did well but his opponent was a jokester commoner with a funky strategy that didn't depend on class or something so you couldn't really tell.

[horseboy]

When the sorcerer I played was first I took Magic Focus (Enchantment). It gave me a DC 16 sleep spell. There were only two things that made the save. Both of them had cleric level(s).

[Amphetryon]

I seem to recall a 1st level build over at WotC a while back that had 30+ HP; that's probably as handy as any resource for a 1st level character to have.

[PhoenixRivers]

This is why Power Attack is best taken at level 3-4.

A solid barbarian will likely be better off throwing their level 1 feat into it, as they've already got accuracy to burn.

Let's look at the barbarian with a MW greatsword:

18 Str (+4 to hit, +6 to damage)
BAB 1 (+1 to hit OR +2 to damage)
Charge (+2 to hit, situational)
Once per day Rage +4 Str (+2 to hit, +3 to damage)

Now, on a charge, Attack is +7 to hit, +6 on power attack

{table=header]Condition | Damage | Chance against AC 16 foe | Weighted Avg Damage
Attack | 2d6+6 (13) | 55% | 7.15
Charge | 2d6+6 (13) | 65% | 8.45
Rage | 2d6+9 (16) | 65% | 10.40
Charge/Rage | 2d6+9 (16) | 75% | 12.00
Power Attack | 2d6+8 (15) | 50% | 7.5
Power Attack Charge | 2d6+8 (15) | 60% | 9
Power Attack Rage | 2d6+11 (18) |60% | 10.8
Power Attack Charge/Rage | 2d6+11 (18) | 70% | 12.6[/table]

While not as marked, even at low levels, against a moderately armored opponent. The damage up will be more pronounced as AC drops, so against easier to hit targets, the barbarian gets real 1 shot potential.

Survivability at low levels is best accomplished by working as a team. Every character will have weaknesses. More than anything, you have to cover each other, and let them do what they do. The barbarian charges the guy near the wizard, the wizard drops a grease to make enemies have a tough time reaching the barbarian. Rogue pecks someone with a crossbow, cleric blesses to improve everyone's accuracy.

There's something for everyone to do, and everyone needs to be on the ball.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, the big problem with first level duels is will saves, and the general lack of them in fighters/barbarians. Warforged helps a lot, but if you are vulnerable to color sprays and the like, you're in trouble. FD spells are also possible, IIRC.

[Mike_G]

Well, the big problem with first level duels is will saves, and the general lack of them in fighters/barbarians. Warforged helps a lot, but if you are vulnerable to color sprays and the like, you're in trouble. FD spells are also possible, IIRC.

But duels are not the norm for acual play. The norm is adventuring as part of a party. First level optimization really shouldn't be about surviving a Wizard Fighter duel (that would be pump Wis and take Iron Will) but about surviving the attacks of 1 HD humanoids and keeping them off the casters. For that you want AC, high hit probability and decent enough damage to reliably one-shot the orc/goblin/kobold who could one-shot your squishy pal, the Elf in a dress.