How tough is the tarrasque? [3.5]

[rezplz]

Now I'm sure that for an optimized party of adventurers, with a full arcane and full divine caster, a tarrasque would be no big problem. But I'm currently DMing for a party of non-optimized players (which is finally getting close to the big bad. We only get to play on breaks from school since everyone's off at college...), and they're currently at the highest level we've ever been, which is 14th. They still have a bit of leveling to do, so what I need to know is what level should they be where they could survive a fight with the tarrasque?


Here are the players in the group.

-A dwarven mystic theurge who focuses on damage spells and being a healbot.

-A tank-focused fighter who doesn't like to use power attack and passed on a +4 greatsword in order to keep her +2 defending greatsword. I think she ended up selling the +4 sword to increase the enchantment on her +2 defending sword... ((To be fair she's probably playing this character because in the past all of the critical hits tend to be rolled against her, and nobody else.))

-A rogue that is less combat focused, and more skill-focused. Something about trying to play a character that overcomes combat by doing clever stuff and not just stabbing everything. I'm actually happy that he's doing this character because if he wanted to I'm sure he could be plenty better than everyone else and outshine everybody.

-A monk. Yeeeaahhh... Not much to say here.

-A chaotic evil raptoran ranger with two levels of fighter, focusing on ranged combat. This is probably the most optimized character in the entire group, and for his first time actually optimizing stuff he didn't do a bad job. He's currently armed with a +1 seeking frost fire shock composite longbow. Due to a houserule he doesn't get unlimited flying until level 15, which he gets next level.


If I need to I'm willing to give a few tips to them to give them a better chance when they do get to the tarrasque, the boss-before-the-final-boss. I don't want to kill them, I just want to make it a great fight.


Also: How would it change things if the tarrasque was flying as with the fly spell, and invisible as with the greater invisibility spell?



Edit: I was originally going to completely surprise them with the tarrasque, but on second thought I'll have to give them a bit of warning so that the theurge can prepare different spells than normal.

I also forgot to mention that while they're at level 14 right now, I expect them to level a few times before the tarrasque, so they'd probably be at 17-18 when the fight came around. You know the whole stereotypical climb-through-a-tower-with-a-boss-fight-at-every-floor kind of thing.

So theoretically They'd get warning now (level 14) and have three-or-four levels to gain while they kill stuff and prepare.

[Starbuck_II]

Beat Tarrasque or kill it?
Wish is needed to kill it, but you can beat it with a successful planeshift to elemental plane of water (drowning it forever till removed from plane).

Do they have fly spells?

[Chrono22]

It depends on if the party is prepared for it, or has previous knowledge about their opponent.
Either the spells will result in a TPK, or they won't make a difference.

...
Judging by your party composition, I doubt they'd be able to defeat the Tarrasque even as level 20 characters. Maybe they could pull it off with DM fiat or some D.E.M., but otherwise, no.

[arguskos]

Uh... given that party... I think they're probably doomed unless they're around level 18 and very, very, VERY clever. Let's break it down.

-Dwarf Blasty Healbot Theurge: Probably useless, unless he comes with buffs prep'd for the fight.
-Tank Fighter: Dead meat, unless she can absorb 80-120+ damage every round. It WILL hit her, it WILL eat her, and it WILL hurt.
-Rogue: Um, depends on how creative he gets really. He might have something useful to do, so he might be screwed.
-Monk: Dead.
-Raptoran: Sadly, also probably useless.

The party, put together, might be able to beat it's regen for a short period of time, but as soon as someone dies, they all die. Unless they bring a large force of powerful folks, some dragons, or a posse of hardcore outsiders, I think that party might be screwed.

[Starbuck_II]

Now, now a Flying Archer is pretty good against a non-flying Mr. T, but the question is what caster is the fly spell on Mr. T?

Caster could dispel it if within his level. More than likely due to Mr. T's SR, it is a potion meaning caster will be 5 (easy to dispel, hopefully caster has 1 prepared).

Blasting Mr. T is hard due to SR.

[arguskos]

Blasting Mr. T is hard due to SR.

Blasting Mr. T is impossible, due to Carapace. Does no one remember he HAS that thing?

Also, unless that archer can reliably put out 50 or more damage in a round, he's not gonna be an issue. Just sayin', the Tarrasque is fairly difficult to kill for your average party, which this appears to be.

[Chrono22]

Not to mention, the Tarrasque's Rush ability gives him a whopping +56 bonus on jump checks. Combine that with a running start, a strength score of 45, and vertical reach... and even the archer might get devoured, unless he's shooting at it from more than 100 feet.
Or it could just throw buildings at the puny winged-bird-meat until it dies.

[Starbuck_II]

Blasting Mr. T is impossible, due to Carapace. Does no one remember he HAS that thing?

Also, unless that archer can reliably put out 50 or more damage in a round, he's not gonna be an issue. Just sayin', the Tarrasque is fairly difficult to kill for your average party, which this appears to be.

Fireball isn't a ray, line, or cone. Neither is it magic missile.

Carapace just means no Scorching ray, disintegrate, etc. Ionic spells like Fireball are best at getting past it. Drawback SR 32 will mean even assuming SP and Greater SP (giving +4 to bypass SR) he will likely be at caster 11 meaning +15 vs 32= needs a 17 to bypass.

There are some + bypass SR spells in spell compendruim (Array Resistance), but unlikely unoptimized guy will have those.

[awa]

ninja
due to your house rule he cant fly indefinitely also if hes not careful the big guys got a great jump check between his high strength and his once a minute rush and his long arms he could easily catch an unprepared character right out of the air.

its also got an int of 3 which means its smarter then an animal so he might be able to realize that he can whip trees, boulders and other improvised weapons at the flying archer (assuming he decides to deal with the archer at all).

[arguskos]

Fireball isn't a ray, line, or cone. Neither is it magic missile.

Carapace just means no Scorching ray, disintegrate, etc. Ionic spells like Fireball are best at getting past it. Drawback SR 32 will mean even assuming SP and Greater SP (giving +4 to bypass SR) he will likely be at caster 11 meaning +15 vs 32= needs a 17 to bypass.

There are some + bypass SR spells in spell compendruim (Array Resistance), but unlikely unoptimized guy will have those.

So, the best blasts pound for pound don't affect him? Oh, yes, blasting is gonna be GREAT against his 858 hp. It's basically pointless. You know that as well as I do. Also, Magic Missile is specifically called out by the carapace ability.

Seriously, DM Man, your party is doooooooooomed, with all the "ooooooooooo"'s you can muster.

[awa]

hes also immune to fire so fireball wont work

[Starbuck_II]

So, the best blasts pound for pound don't affect him? Oh, yes, blasting is gonna be GREAT against his 858 hp. It's basically pointless. You know that as well as I do. Also, Magic Missile is specifically called out by the carapace ability.

Seriously, DM Man, your party is doooooooooomed, with all the "ooooooooooo"'s you can muster.

Which is why I said neither is fireball magic missile (which is not allowed by carapace). He could use energy substitution to make the fireball (Cold).

Hey, use enough fireballs (assuming he finds a way to get pass SR with his low caster) he will defeat his hp.
Maybe he has acid fog? That has no SR, deals damage, and will slow the creature (acts like solid fog). Also not a ray, line, cone or magic missile.

Granted, Acid fog is battle field control not blasty so unlikely to prepare it.

Edit: I assume the archer will pepper him full of arrows and rogue will tanglefoot bag or net Mr. T so he will stay in place.

Not sure what beatsticks will do, but attacking Mr.T in the face with your fist or sword is a poor plan unless Leap attacking.

[cupkeyk]

the mystic theurge can do it alone. summon/create shadows and harrass the tarrasque into a coma, coup de grace at leisure.

[Levithix]

You might be good to give a few of the enemies they fight before it useful gear like scrolls of assay spell resistance and +5 magical beast bane weapon (to overcome dr)

Also, I can't remember where its from or if it only works on trolls. But there is an alchemical item that suppresses regen.

[arguskos]

Which is why I said neither is fireball magic missile (which is not allowed by carapace). He could use energy substitution to make the fireball (Cold).

Hey, use enough fireballs (assuming he finds a way to get pass SR with his low caster) he will defeat his hp.
Maybe he has acid fog? That has no SR, deals damage, and will slow the creature (acts like solid fog). Also not a ray, line, cone or magic missile.

Granted, Acid fog is battle field control not blasty so unlikely to prepare it.

Also, he's immune to fire.

As for Acid Fog, I think Big T can move out of that in a single round, since he's bigger than the cloud is. And if he isn't, then ok, we found a decent idea there. Bombard him with hordes and hordes of face-melting acid fogs? Oi, that just SOUNDS like a plan doomed to failure.

[awa]

shadows cant hurt the trasque its immune to ability damage

[Starbuck_II]

Gain control over a Allip?
Granted, I'm not sure how to get one.

Mr. T isn't immune to Ability drain; he is only immune to Ability damage.

[awa]

hell still regenerate the acid its only like 2d6 a round sure it hurts him but not enough

[AslanCross]

Which is why I said neither is fireball magic missile (which is not allowed by carapace). He could use energy substitution to make the fireball (Cold).

Hey, use enough fireballs (assuming he finds a way to get pass SR with his low caster) he will defeat his hp.
Maybe he has acid fog? That has no SR, deals damage, and will slow the creature (acts like solid fog). Also not a ray, line, cone or magic missile.

Granted, Acid fog is battle field control not blasty so unlikely to prepare it.

It's still just an average of 35 damage at maximum level. Delayed Blast Fireball or some other Metamagic trick will probably give it a more respectable punch, but Big T's just going to regenerate that back. They have to be very creative to kill this guy, but since the only caster is a Mystic Theurge, he's going to be rather low on CL.

The party has chosen the path of defeat. Best bet, IMO, is finding a way to drop something really big onto the Tarrasque and running away.

the mystic theurge can do it alone. summon/create shadows and harrass the tarrasque into a coma, coup de grace at leisure.

You can only coup de grace a regenerating creature with something that deals lethal damage to it (Fire vs Troll, for example). Unfortunately, nothing deals lethal damage to a Tarrasque.

A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage.

No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque.

[awa]

that's what shadows do ability damage

edit oh i see you were talking about the alip yeah assuming the trasque dosnt kill it before it gets his first attack with an attack of opportunity it will be able to weaken him but probably only once then hell kill it.
so if you could get 4 or 5 alips you might be able to win

[Starbuck_II]

How does Mr. T hurt an incorporeal creature? It isn't like he has Greater Magic fang on him.
He doesn't have a magic weapon listed.

[rezplz]

I was originally going to completely surprise them with the tarrasque, but on second thought I'll have to give them a bit of warning so that the theurge can prepare different spells than normal.

I also forgot to mention that while they're at level 14 right now, I expect them to level a few times before the tarrasque, so they'd probably be at 17-18 when the fight came around. You know the whole stereotypical climb-through-a-tower-with-a-boss-fight-at-every-floor kind of thing. My group tends to get combat done relatively quickly compared to other stuff so that should rapidly increase the pace that they'd level at.



Starbuck_II: Beat it is all they need to do. So a plane shift would work, but it's an 8th level spell if I remember correctly. Gonna be a while til the theurge can cast that. Unless if one of them suddenly dies and rolls up a full caster. I think the dwarf knows fly though.

As for the caster level? Well the tarrasque would actually be a wizard polymorphed INTO a tarrasque. Normally impossible and against the rules, I know, but it would be justified by plot that I've already laid out. So the wizard would have cast invisibility and fly before turning into the tarrasque. Assuming I decided to go that route.


arguskos:At level 13 and before getting fire, frost, and shock enchanted on his +1 seeking bow he was reliably doing 30-40 damage per round. Since the new enchantements and he'll be leveling up a bit, 50 damage/round shouldn't be hard at all for him to do.

Chrono22: Other than the huge tower they start in, they'll be on a plane with nothing but flat ground and air. So mister T will have nothing to throw at the archer, but the jumping may be a problem.

[rezplz]

The party has chosen the path of defeat. Best bet, IMO, is finding a way to drop something really big onto the Tarrasque and running away.

Me and the guy playing the rogue did once brainstorm a way to kill things by dropping elephants onto them... If they try to pull those shenanigans I may very well let it work if it's creative enough.

[awa]

he has damage reduction epic if i recall correctly his natural attack should count as epic magical weapons so should be able to hit 50% of the time.

also if the archer was doing that damage vie multiple attacks the trasques does have damage reduction epic 15

[sofawall]

At level 13...he was reliably doing 30-40 damage per round.

I'm reliably doing that at level 6 (and could be doing it sooner). What is up with your party?

EDIT: Awa, it can only have its weapon treated as Epic for the purpose of overcoming DR.

[Starbuck_II]

he has damage reduction epic if i recall correctly his natural attack should count as epic magical weapons so should be able to hit 50% of the time.

That isn't how DR works. Your natural attacks count for bypassing DR. They never actually become magic (or Epic in case but I'm not sure if there are super incorporeals only hit 50% of time by non-epic weapons).

Otherwise Ki Strike (magic) would allow monks to have +1 unarmed strikes. But they don't. They (monks) can't hurt incorporeals with their fist unless Necklace of might fist, etc. It just lets a monk bypass DR/magic.

[AslanCross]

Me and the guy playing the rogue did once brainstorm a way to kill things by dropping elephants onto them... If they try to pull those shenanigans I may very well let it work if it's creative enough.

Poor elephants. ): Remember that you can't summon nonflying creatures into thin air, though.

he has damage reduction epic if i recall correctly his natural attack should count as epic magical weapons so should be able to hit 50% of the time.

also if the archer was doing that damage vie multiple attacks the trasques does have damage reduction epic 15

Indeed, the Tarrasque's natural weapons count as epic weapons.

That isn't how DR works. Your natural attacks count for bypassing DR. They never actually become magic.

Otherwise Ki Strike (magic) would allow monks to have +1 unarmed strikes. But they don't. They (monks) can't hurt incorporeals with their fist unless Necklace of might fist, etc. It just lets a monk bypass DR/magic.

As a matter of fact, they do.

A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

See: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbi...amageReduction

The same entry also says creatures with DR/Magic have attacks that count as magic weapons.

[rezplz]

I'm reliably doing that at level 6 (and could be doing it sooner). What is up with your party?

They've never really cared about optimizing before. The ranger was that player's first attempt at any kind of optimization for a ranged fighter-type. We're much more of a casual group.


awa: Ah, forgot about that damage reduction. Yeah, that would change things a bit then... I might have to house-rule a nerf for that or just not do the tarrasque at all. Maybe find something else for the boss-wizard to polymorph into that's more beatable for them.

[Starbuck_II]

Indeed, the Tarrasque's natural weapons count as epic weapons.



As a matter of fact, they do.



See: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbi...amageReduction

The same entry also says creatures with DR/Magic have attacks that count as magic weapons.

FOR BYPASSING DR.
Repeat that in your mind please.
FOR BYPASSING DR.
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

They are never actually magic for purposes of incorporeals.

[arguskos]

rezplz, can your archer ALSO hit AC 35 all the time? Dealing that much? To a creature immune to fire? Just sayin' here. You may wish to start dropping hints now so they can start building towards Tarrasque killing in 3-4 levels.