Quarterstaff Redux

[Tetsubo 57]

This is my second attempt at doing a redesign of the quarterstaff within the 3.5 rules. My idea is that the true danger of a weapon is within the user, rather than the weapon itself. That in the hands of an untrained person, even the most fearsome weapon isn't dangerous. When used by a character only trained in simple weapons the quarterstaff is the least useful and dangerous. As the skill of the user increases the weapon becomes more deadly. Constructive comments are welcome.

As it stands now a quarterstaff has the following 3.5 statistics:

Simple weapon. Quarterstaff: No cost, 1d4/1d4 (Small), 1d6/1d6 (Medium) ×2, No range increment, 4 lb., Bludgeoning damage. It is a double weapon.

My version:

Simple weapon. Quarterstaff: No cost, 1d6 (Small), 1d8 (Medium) ×2, No range increment, 4 lb., Bludgeoning damage. It is a two-handed weapon.

Martial weapon. Quarterstaff: No cost, 1d6/1d6 (Small), 1d8/1d8 (Medium) ×2, No range increment, 4 lb., Bludgeoning damage. It is a two-handed weapon.
In the hands of a character trained in all martial weapons, has the feat Martial Weapon (Quarterstaff) or is a Monk it receives the following changes: The quarterstaff grants a +2 equipment bonus to Balance and Jump skill checks. A quarterstaff is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do; you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. A creature wielding a quarterstaff in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

Exotic weapon. Quarterstaff: No cost, 1d6/1d6 (Small), 1d8/1d8 (Medium) ×2, No range increment, 4 lb., Bludgeoning damage. It is a two-handed weapon.
In the hands of a character with the feat Exotic Weapon (Quarterstaff) or is a Monk it receives the following changes: The +2 equipment bonus to Balance and Jump skill checks is increased to a +4 bonus. A quarterstaff is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do; you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. A creature wielding a quarterstaff in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
The quarterstaff has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe.

Under all circumstances the quarterstaff is a special monk weapon. This designation gives a monk wielding a quarterstaff special options.

[Cieyrin]

Hmm, interesting. I personally hadn't thought of applying multiple levels of training to weapons. This sort of concept could be applied to all weapons, with advanced training unlocking new features in weapons.

As for your extrapolation of quarterstaff abilities, it's fairly intriguing in allowing it to be a double weapon only with martial training and then gain reach with exotic training, with the skill bonuses on the side just cream on top of that.

I'm almost inspired right now to rework the PHB weapons with advanced capabilities, depending on the amount of training you have in them, as denoted by the level of proficiency with the weapon you have.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Tetsubo 57]

Hmm, interesting. I personally hadn't thought of applying multiple levels of training to weapons. This sort of concept could be applied to all weapons, with advanced training unlocking new features in weapons.

As for your extrapolation of quarterstaff abilities, it's fairly intriguing in allowing it to be a double weapon only with martial training and then gain reach with exotic training, with the skill bonuses on the side just cream on top of that.

I'm almost inspired right now to rework the PHB weapons with advanced capabilities, depending on the amount of training you have in them, as denoted by the level of proficiency with the weapon you have.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Thanks.

Ultimately I would like to convert all weapons over to this model. But it would a ton of work that I don't really have time for at the moment. Lots of gaming ideas all trying to get written at once. :)

[jagadaishio]

I agree, this method makes perfect sense for all manner of weapons. It makes a lot more sense, at least to me, than the current system of a -4 penalty on non-proficient weapons. Rather than just being really inaccurate but otherwise fully versed in the capabilities of a weapon that you are non-proficient in, different levels of proficiency actually just plain improve the versatility and function of the weapon involved. Bravo, I look forward to more of these from you in the future.

[Tetsubo 57]

I agree, this method makes perfect sense for all manner of weapons. It makes a lot more sense, at least to me, than the current system of a -4 penalty on non-proficient weapons. Rather than just being really inaccurate but otherwise fully versed in the capabilities of a weapon that you are non-proficient in, different levels of proficiency actually just plain improve the versatility and function of the weapon involved. Bravo, I look forward to more of these from you in the future.

Sure, put pressure on me... :)

[Draz74]

I have a hard time imagining the Quarterstaff with reach.

Instead, I think the advantages of a Quarterstaff, in the hands of an expert wielder, would be mainly that it's excellent for parrying. Perhaps include the effects of Two-Weapon Defense without actually spending a feat on it?

[Vourge]

Hmm, interesting. I personally hadn't thought of applying multiple levels of training to weapons. This sort of concept could be applied to all weapons, with advanced training unlocking new features in weapons.

I'm almost inspired right now to rework the PHB weapons with advanced capabilities, depending on the amount of training you have in them, as denoted by the level of proficiency with the weapon you have.

My friend and I are making a feat that gives new abilities to the simple weapons with extra training. We have some of it done but we're not quite finished.

[Hannes]

I have a hard time imagining the Quarterstaff with reach.

I'd have to second that, since reach (for medium) means that you can hit targets that are 10 feet away (about 3 meters if I remember correctly). Now, a quarterstaff is about as tall as you are or a bit shorter. Let's say you're 175 cm tall, that's 5.7 feet. Imagine...

[erikun]

I have yet to see a wizard or cleric try to wield a quarterstaff two-handed. Oh, I'm sure it can happen, especially if they have Expertise and a Defending/Defending staff, give up their attacks for +15 AC.

Anyways, the Simple/Martial/Exotic looks good. After all, someone who uses the the staff more as a walking stick than a weapon wouldn't be busting out the kung fu moves. Basic attacks as Simple, the two-weapon fighting option as Martial, and the reach option as Exotic. (Trained monks and martial artists can lunge with a staff, easily hitting something 10 feet away.) I would point out that you can't use it as both a reach weapon and double weapon at the same time, though.

I'm not sure I get the bonus to Balance/Jump, though. Sure, I get the "use long stick to balance on narrow beam" part, but would it really help with standing on oil or ice? And what about Jump, a pole-vault reference?

You might just want to say "Special: A monk is proficient with Exotic Weapon: Quarterstaff" at the end, rather than try saying so in each paragraph.

[paddyfool]

I have yet to see a wizard or cleric try to wield a quarterstaff two-handed. Oh, I'm sure it can happen, especially if they have Expertise and a Defending/Defending staff, give up their attacks for +15 AC.

I think you mean "as a double weapon". Swinging it with both hands isn't uncommon for a high-strength cleric to do.

I'm not sure I get the bonus to Balance/Jump, though. Sure, I get the "use long stick to balance on narrow beam" part, but would it really help with standing on oil or ice? And what about Jump, a pole-vault reference?

I interpreted the bonus to balance as a quarterstaff user being able to ground one end of it to hold themselves up (the same would go for the user of any sturdy pole-arm).

I have a hard time imagining the Quarterstaff with reach.

I'd have thought so, too, until I saw "Once upon a time in China 2".

I'd like to suggest, however, that the quarterstaff can't be both a reach and a double weapon. Perhaps with Exotic Weapon Proficiency, a user could switch between uses as a swift action.

Two more things you can do with a quarterstaff, incidentally, with training:

- "Trip" with it (technically a sweep, but effectively the same thing). Once again, the same should work for any sturdy pole-arm.
- Deal non-lethal damage about as easily as lethal.

I once came up with a feat to enable these three things (the swift action trade of double for reach, and these two other less useful things), but I would have to concede that it was kind of under-powered.

[Tetsubo 57]

I'd have to second that, since reach (for medium) means that you can hit targets that are 10 feet away (about 3 meters if I remember correctly). Now, a quarterstaff is about as tall as you are or a bit shorter. Let's say you're 175 cm tall, that's 5.7 feet. Imagine...

The problem is that reality is showing a flaw in the game mechanics. People do not stay at nice, neat 5' intervals from each other. Especially in combat. Thrusting 4' - 5' of staff forward with one arm at full extension will quite easily reach an opponent in the second rank. Without any difficulty at all. And for me, reality trumps the game mechanics every day.

[Tetsubo 57]

I have yet to see a wizard or cleric try to wield a quarterstaff two-handed. Oh, I'm sure it can happen, especially if they have Expertise and a Defending/Defending staff, give up their attacks for +15 AC.

Anyways, the Simple/Martial/Exotic looks good. After all, someone who uses the the staff more as a walking stick than a weapon wouldn't be busting out the kung fu moves. Basic attacks as Simple, the two-weapon fighting option as Martial, and the reach option as Exotic. (Trained monks and martial artists can lunge with a staff, easily hitting something 10 feet away.) I would point out that you can't use it as both a reach weapon and double weapon at the same time, though.

I'm not sure I get the bonus to Balance/Jump, though. Sure, I get the "use long stick to balance on narrow beam" part, but would it really help with standing on oil or ice? And what about Jump, a pole-vault reference?

You might just want to say "Special: A monk is proficient with Exotic Weapon: Quarterstaff" at the end, rather than try saying so in each paragraph.

Balance is balance. And yes, a pole vault style Jump assist.

If you devote enough time to a weapon to qualify for an Exotic feat, I don't think using the staff as both a double weapon and a reach weapon is asking a lot. It isn't like this would be something occurring every round.

[Cieyrin]

I have a hard time imagining the Quarterstaff with reach.

Instead, I think the advantages of a Quarterstaff, in the hands of an expert wielder, would be mainly that it's excellent for parrying. Perhaps include the effects of Two-Weapon Defense without actually spending a feat on it?

You evidently haven't played enough Soul Calibur, then. This is so Kilik, double weapon at reach, with unarmed strikes thrown in for his flurry of blows.

[Latronis]

Would be kinda nifty qualifying for exotic weapon master with a big stick too

Whoops forgot i was linked here thread necro bad

[Yakk]

I'd codefy this as a set of "Stances" or "Styles" or "Wields".

You have the Simple option (d8 weapon).
You have the Martial Double Weapon option (d8/d8 weapon).
And you have the Exotic Reach option (d8 reach weapon).

Changing between options might be a swift action.

Possibly the feats to learn the weapon would open up particular options, and also add other bonuses (the balance thing).

[Ashtagon]

If you want a staff that reflects anime sensibilities, by all means make it a double weapon with reach. Personally, I prefer things to be grounded more in terms of what is realistically possible.

[hiryuu]

If you want a staff that reflects anime sensibilities, by all means make it a double weapon with reach. Personally, I prefer things to be grounded more in terms of what is realistically possible.

I have seen my roommate do things with a quarterstaff I didn't think were physically possible, from knocking bark off the opposite side of a tree he was striking, to hitting a (dummy) target behind the knees and on the head with the same strike (interestingly enough, to illustrate its use as a double weapon to a Doubting Thomas), to making the staff explode simply by building torque with it (not striking it against anything or pulling down both ends, he simply twirled it for about five minutes across his torso and back to build up torque, then rolled it forward over his shoulders, whereupon it shattered into a small shower of splinters that sailed about ten feet). But then again, this is a guy who's trained since about the age of six with that one weapon.

[Roderick_BR]

Ooh, very nice. As it was mentioned, yeah, allowing different levels of expertise works fine.
Hmm... I'll have to work out a way of putting it in a game with the others weapons.

Necrothread? Well, too bad. It's still a nice idea that deserves more working.

[sigurd]

Personally, I see tripping before reach.

Interesting idea.


Sigurd

[Ashtagon]

I have seen my roommate do things with a quarterstaff I didn't think were physically possible, from knocking bark off the opposite side of a tree he was striking, to hitting a (dummy) target behind the knees and on the head with the same strike (interestingly enough, to illustrate its use as a double weapon to a Doubting Thomas), to making the staff explode simply by building torque with it (not striking it against anything or pulling down both ends, he simply twirled it for about five minutes across his torso and back to build up torque, then rolled it forward over his shoulders, whereupon it shattered into a small shower of splinters that sailed about ten feet). But then again, this is a guy who's trained since about the age of six with that one weapon.

Did he manage to hit someone with both ends at the same time from ten feet away? I'm assuming here that he was using a weapon about 5-6 feet long.

Double + reach simultaneously strains credulity, because weapon length + arm length doesn't quite reach ten feet. I can appreciate a length lunge could do reach, but that would require using the length of the weapon for reach, so the near end wouldn't be ten feet from yourself (but rather, in your hand).

Reach OR double, I'm comfortable with. Both simultaneously, not so comfy with. But it's your game, and if that works for you, cool.

[hiryuu]

Did he manage to hit someone with both ends at the same time from ten feet away? I'm assuming here that he was using a weapon about 5-6 feet long.

Double + reach simultaneously strains credulity, because weapon length + arm length doesn't quite reach ten feet. I can appreciate a length could do reach, but that would require using the length of the weapon for reach, so the near end wouldn't be ten feet from yourself (but rather, in your hand).

Reach OR double, I'm comfortable with. Both simultaneously, not so comfy with. But it's your game, and if that works for you, cool.

Actually yeah, I should have clarified, I totally agree with you there.

[Draz74]

Yeah -- as the one who originally protested reach, I have to say, I'm very ok with it if it has certain restrictions, such as not being used as a double weapon at the same time. "Lunging" might also be better represented as "only on your turn, not on AoO's."

Though this would make even more sense with a slightly longer staff than a "quarter"staff. Martial arts does use other kinds of staffs.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Necrothread? Well, too bad. It's still a nice idea that deserves more working.

I started working on expanding it to include more weapons at school today, after being inspire by this thread.

I'll work a bit more, maybe create a new thread as a work-in-progress, and see where it goes from there.

Some weapons are really hard to do this for, though. What would somebody who's trained with a Light Mace get opposed to somebody who just picked it up, other than more damage?

[Latronis]

I started working on expanding it to include more weapons at school today, after being inspire by this thread.

I'll work a bit more, maybe create a new thread as a work-in-progress, and see where it goes from there.

Some weapons are really hard to do this for, though. What would somebody who's trained with a Light Mace get opposed to somebody who just picked it up, other than more damage?

Well maces are pretty ideal anti-armour weapons what with all those points and all that weight.

Let's say it has something like.. subtract 2 from target's Armour\Natural Armour based AC before you make your attack roll. Won't make you any more likely to hit a tricksy rogue but it'll have a greater chance of punching through that fullplate

[Roderick_BR]

Some weapons would be harder to stat, yeah... but on the other hand, we could finally justify the spiked chain, by making a simple and martial versions of it.

Note also, that the bastard sword, dwarven waraxe, and maul (from some Forgotten Realms book), already exists in both martial and exotic version.

[dsmiles]

I don't think I've ever used a 1/4 staff in a game, but with these rules, I would definitely consider it. Hrrm...a TWF fighter who takes quarterstaff as an exotic weapon.

[elliott20]

It's actually a pretty cool idea, and really there should be no power concerns with this. After all, we're talking about spending a feat to gain an additional option on the battlefield. Not exactly game breaking.

The thing is though, a part of me can't help but think this sounds more like it should just be called a style specific feat instead of just making it a standard progression for every weapon.

take, for example, a long sword. Would exotic proficiency in that do? To me, it depends on the style you learned. Maybe there's a style of long sword fighting that teaches you to grip the pommel in a certain way that allows you to gain leverage like a greatsword, and therefore give you the ability to power attack with the longsword LIKE it's a two-handed weapon. Maybe there's a style feat that gives you the ability to wield the longsword at the tip of the handle, thereby giving you a longer reach with it if you hold it with one hand.

edit: as soon as I hit submit, I realized that the OP was trying to give the standard fighter who has proficiency in all these weapons just MORE abilities.

so okay, I'm all for that. But I think the ability needs to be something built into the weapon itself, and then perhaps you can expand upon that concept and have MORE style feats for the weapon extending beyond it.

This, of course, is the hard part, since it requires we understand the nature of each weapon and how it's used. (Any ARMA people here?)

[Celesyne]

Reach I can Definately see. A quarter staff is typically 5.5-6.5 ft in length, add in the an average arms length of about 2 feet and that you can lean even the slightest bit and add another foot or 2 to the reach giving you a nice 10 foot reach, however only with one side.

So, Single hit with reach or double weapon without, I wouldn't allow both in the same turn, at the very least.

[Amros Aldarion]

One question witht eh overall game mechanic:

if the proficiencies with weapons increase your abilities with weapons, doesn't this gimp the abilities of non- martial characters?

Not that there's no solution, I like this variant, just that it might call for a broadening of weapon types usable by less martial focused classes (it would suck to be non-proficient with most weapons and only able to use simple weapons in a shoddy manner)

On the other hand, maybe this helps balance high-level fighters, pallies, and rangers against the more powerful spellcasters (though maybe rogues would need a tweak for this...)

[elliott20]

well, for casters, this should really not be a problem at all. It's the non-caster, non-martial people that would get left behind a little.

but even then, we're not talking giving these weapons high level powers for the proficiency, but simply just an extra little options or a little boost.

I mean, we're talking about letting a character go between a 5 reach or an extra attack. It's not exactly earth shattering powerful here.