[3.5] Lost caster progression as balancing mechanism?

[Zaq]

So, we all know that one of the most sacred rules of optimization is "Thou Shalt Not Lose Caster Levels." (Yes, there are exceptions. Blah blah Malconvoker blah Sandshaper blah blah Swiftblade blah blah blah. I know. Not the point.) Even in the cases of the exceptions, you hardly ever lose more than one casting level. In most cases, the 5/10 progression classes are considered to be complete wastes of space... and compared to a 20th level straight-classed Wizard (or Cleric, or Archivist, or whatever), they are.

But, what if that's not the point?

Wizards and the other full casters are crazy, crazy powerful. No one really disputes this. It's also obvious that they outshine most other classes without even trying. It's possible to intentionally throttle back and let the rest of the party shine, of course, but deep down, everyone knows that you probably could have decided the encounter with a standard action if you really wanted to. However, even people who try to "play nice" in this way still shy away from losing caster levels.

What if we tried combining the two?

Wizards (I'm just going to use wizards as the default example, but I'm talking about all of the crazy full casters) are ridiculously strong... but are they ridiculously strong enough to maintain parity with other classes if they intentionally gimp their spell progression? Sure, a wizard with a bunch of levels in, for example, Mindbender, or Visionary Seeker,or whatever, won't be nearly on par with a wizard who didn't sacrifice any spell levels... but they're still a freakin' Wizard, right? Well, that's what I'm trying to think about. At what point does lost caster level stop making the wizard "less powerful than GOD" and start making them an actual drain on party resources?

Of course, this all depends on the makeup of the party. If you're a wizard in a group with a druid, a psion, a sorcerer, and an artificer (in other words, with other 1st and 2nd tier classes), yeah, losing three or four levels is going to make you have to do some fast talking to justify your share of the loot. But let's say that we have a slightly lower balance point. For the purposes of this thread, how about Tome of Battle? Let's say that the goal is to bring as much to the party as a Warblade or Swordsage. What then? Losing caster levels undeniably weakens the wizard... but the wizard needs to be weakened to begin with. Would a wizard who dives into a 1/2 progression class be about on par with, say, a swordsage? What would have to be true for that to be the case?

Basically, I'm just wondering at what point spells stop being worth enough to carry a character's weight. You want more than 3rd level spells at level 20, sure, but do we really need 9th? Is being a spell level or two behind a straight-classer really so bad when you were already a demigod wizard? Would a wizard who intentionally loses some caster levels still be on par with a warblade? Why or why not?

I'm thinking that if all wizards were required to lose some caster levels... well, it certainly wouldn't balance the game straight up (that'd require, among other things, hand-combing through every spell in the game... and changing more than a few basic assumptions), but I think it would help things. I know that I like playing magical characters, but I hate outshining my friends. I don't have anything specific in mind, but I can't help but wonder if it wouldn't help to take one of these "horrifically weak" PrCs expressly to try to rein in the power. When compared to other classes (again, I like Swordsage as a balance point), are the 5/10 classes really that bad, or is not staying at the top level bad enough that the wizard stops being useful, even if he stops being godly?

[DragoonWraith]

I disagree. If the Wizard needs nerfing, nerf the Wizard. Any PrC that strictly downgrades a character is simply poorly designed. Any base class that needs it is also poorly designed. Two poorly designed classes do not make a good class.

[Arakune]

At higher levels you're facing creatures that also have 9th level spells and are full casters or are simply immune to a lot of things. Some 9th level powers are really strong (shapeshange, disjunction) where others are ok (energy drain) and others are simply waste of space (meteor swarm), but you also use the 8th, 9th level slots for metamagiced spells (quickened enervation comes to mind). With a 5/10 PrC you have up to 15th level CL and 8th level spells, you blasting spells deal less damage, you didn't reached the cap for greater dispell magic, etc.

[Zaq]

At higher levels you're facing creatures that also have 9th level spells and are full casters or are simply immune to a lot of things. Some 9th level powers are really strong (shapeshange, disjunction) where others are ok (energy drain) and others are simply waste of space (meteor swarm), but you also use the 8th, 9th level slots for metamagiced spells (quickened enervation comes to mind). With a 5/10 PrC you have up to 15th level CL and 8th level spells, you blasting spells deal less damage, you didn't reached the cap for greater dispell magic, etc.

Right. You're weaker than a full level Wizard. That's patently obvious.

Are you also weaker than a swordsage, or similar class?

If so, how much weaker? If not, are you on par with them? Are you still above them because spells are Just That Good? Are you a total waste of skin, even if your partymates aren't clerics and druids?

[Mongoose87]

Lost caster levels just plain aren't fun. Someone in one of my games took Dragon Disciple, and the lost caster levels bum him out. No one wants to not see their primary class feature go up in power when they're leveling.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I'd recommend just building yourself not to break the party. Things like Haste and Grease are far better from a party standpoint than, say, Glitterdust. If you're the DM, just ban Wizards. There's a couple of decent homebrew replacements out there. You can do similar things for the other Tier 1 classes, and come out balanced.

[Gpope]

Lost caster levels just plain aren't fun. Someone in one of my games took Dragon Disciple, and the lost caster levels bum him out. No one wants to not see their primary class feature go up in power when they're leveling.

A primary spellcaster in a PrC that skips every other level of caster progression is still far better off than many non-casting classes, especially if they're getting fun little PrC powers. It hurts a bit more early on, particularly for spontaneous casters since they're already 1 level behind the curve, but by the time you get to 3rd or 4th level spells I don't think you have much to complain about if you miss a couple levels here and there.

[sonofzeal]

Issue - monster saves increase, and if you aren't full-casting then your chance of success starts dropping. It's possible to deal exclusively with no-save spells, but that's harder and generally includes a lot of the nastiest ones anyway.


That said, if you're overshadowing the party without even trying, voluntarily nerfing your casting by a level or two is a good way to balance things. I want to play a Cleric who casts as an Adept, and see what I can do.

[Mongoose87]

A primary spellcaster in a PrC that skips every other level of caster progression is still far better off than many non-casting classes, especially if they're getting fun little PrC powers. It hurts a bit more early on, particularly for spontaneous casters since they're already 1 level behind the curve, but by the time you get to 3rd or 4th level spells I don't think you have much to complain about if you miss a couple levels here and there.

I'm not talking about power, I'm talking about entertainment value. When I play my wizard, the thing I'm most looking forward to a t a level up is more spells per day - taking them away on purpose is depressing.

[erikun]

First is the point that lost caster level means lower damage and lower DC. Losing two caster levels is -2d6 damage and -1 DC. It is roughly equal to a Fighter entering a 1/2 BAB Prestige Class: What is there in the class that could possibly compare with losing one fourth of your combat ability? Oh, and a -4 penality to damage rolls, at that.

The DC is a major problem, because it's what allows the Wizard to effect enemies. A Wizard with low DC isn't participating less in a fight, they don't participate at all, because their spells ultimately don't do anything.

The second is that spellcasting is what most casters do. A Wizard can't fight, doesn't have a large selection of skills, and doesn't have any other abilities. Prestige classes which try to make a Wizard-gish with full BAB and half casting fall flat because you don't end up with a gish; you end up with a low HP, low AC character with still bad BAB and bad spell selection.

In order to make the lost spell progression worth it, the Wizard needs to get something in exchange. Namely, something interesting and worth moving away from spellcasting, yet not overpowered for getting it by level 15, usually.

--

For the record, this is why I like psionics. Four lost manifester levels can be made up with Practiced Manifester, and you can still use the lower level powers at full efficiency for your level. A spellcaster with Practiced Spellcaster still suffers from the lower DC, because he's still using lower level spells.

[Gpope]

I'm not talking about power, I'm talking about entertainment value. When I play my wizard, the thing I'm most looking forward to a t a level up is more spells per day - taking them away on purpose is depressing.

You think that's depressing, how do you think the barbarian feels? "Trapsense +2, here I come! Woooooo! Level 6 baby, hell yeah!"

Or every odd-numbered fighter level. "Hey guys, my BAB went up a whole point! What did you guys get? Oh, you can... stop time? Turn into a dragon all day? Bring dead people back from out of thin air? Oh, uh, that's great guys, really. But seriously. I hit stuff with my sword 5% more effectively, go me!"

When I play a wizard (and I loves me some wizards), the thing I look forward to at level up is the fact that I still get to be a wizard and am already both more powerful and more entertaining than virtually any other class out there. (Except at very low levels, but you're typically not going to start PrCing until after level 5 or so.)

In order to make the lost spell progression worth it, the Wizard needs to get something in exchange. Namely, something interesting and worth moving away from spellcasting, yet not overpowered for getting it by level 15, usually.

"Worth moving away from spellcasting" and "not overpowered for getting it by level 15" are contradictory goals; spellcasting by its nature tends to get pretty overpowered by level 15. That's kind of the point of the thread, the idea that maybe casters ought to be sacrificing some of that power.

[erikun]

"Worth moving away from spellcasting" and "not overpowered for getting it by level 15" are contradictory goals; spellcasting by its nature tends to get pretty overpowered by level 15.

But that's the problem. At level 15, you will only be a level 10 caster. It's like trying to fight a Storm Giant or Iron Golem with Evard's Black Tentacles or Glitterdust - it just doesn't work at that level, and you don't have the spells that do work. As such, any Wizard 5/X 10 prestige class needs to include something that allows the character to function at level 15, not just nerf the Wizard into a corner where he can't participate anymore.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Perhaps Malconvoker, Sandshaper and Swiftblade are the point. If you're taking a prestige class simply to nerf yourself, you might as well go straight wizard and hold back on the top shelf of spells (saving them just in case). But if you're entering a PrC with lost caster levels because the abilities are awesome and fun, you'll probably still be less powerful without suffering for it.

EDIT: I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding here. If the rest of the party is unoptimized, a clever-enough 15th level character with 10th level wizard casting might still be the most powerful character in the party. The DM would simply have to tone down the challenges. Also, Practiced Spellcaster.