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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default So my DM threw Savage Species down...

    ...and said, "play whatever you want."

    I'm looking at a Feral Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale, for pure rollplaying purposes.

    Should I go spiked chain + improved trip & some size increases? We're playing in 3.0, complete with the insanity of 3.0 Knockdown. The problem with a tripper is having to start with 17 int, as feral gives me -4 int.

    Or should I got for Monk1/Ranger1/Soul Eater for 5+ level draining attacks on a charge?
    Last edited by Myrmex; 2009-12-01 at 02:00 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: So my DM threw Savage Species down...

    Monk, and say your Unarmed Strike is body-slamming people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: So my DM threw Savage Species down...

    Uhm, Anthrobat Druid?
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
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  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Default Re: So my DM threw Savage Species down...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Uhm, Anthrobat Druid?
    3.0 druids are weaksauce.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: So my DM threw Savage Species down...

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmex View Post
    3.0 druids are weaksauce.
    Ehhh, they still have Wildshape and Natural Spell [MoTW] and can get 2xLevel of animal HD in companions (though only 1xLevel will follow); I personally find the 3.0 version to be slightly stronger than the 3.5.

    EDIT: I reckon I should explain my reasons:
    - Until late levels, it's rather trivial to find a solid animal companion. It's annoying, yes, but purely power-wise the fact that you can actually exceed the limit by 2x for tough dungeon instances and such means it's probably stronger that way.

    Generally, the best option powerwise in 3.5 is to switch to more powerful one as soon as they become available anyways. With Legendaries and Dires, you won't run out of options before 20 anyways, and in 3.0 you can always take multiples. Granted, the mechanics are more bothersome to RP since you have to dismiss companions constantly and such for it to truly work out, but powerwise it is stronger.
    - Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength and company are 1 hour/level and can be empowered and maximized. This means that instead of needing to buy stat boost items, casters can just buff themselves with these. This also means you don't really even care about Wilding Clasps. Oh, and you can Empower and Maximize them for ~+7 to stats.
    - I recall 3.0 Polymorph (and Wild Shape) granted you the Animal-type making you eligible for your own Animal Growths, among other things. That's a very strong spell.
    - You've got 3.0 Heal, which is a v. good spell, and Harm which is passable.
    - The standard Druid goodies are still there in Entangles, Transmute Rocks, Mists, Shapechanges and what-not. Further, Greater Magic Weapon is now a close range spell and thus eligible for Chain; very useful given the number of natural weapons especially with multiple ACs you may be dealing with.
    - Wild Shape is more limited off the bat, yes. You cannot acquire Dire-forms and there's no guideline on e.g. Dinosaurs. However, that's not that big a problem. While level 5 forms are mehhish (Leopard or arguably Deinonychus), you still get Bears on 8 and so on; the only option that's delayed is Dire Lion and given it's only +1 Str higher than standard Tiger, it's not that bad. Dire Bear is still right on schedule and after that you've got free reign. Sure, you lose versatility lacking Plant Wildshape (I think it's a feat in 3.0) but the ability is plenty good without it.


    So yeah, the Wild Shape is slightly worse in one, rather insignificant way but much stronger in a very significant way (Animal-type), animal companion is more bothersome but stronger most of the time (level 1 it's slightly worse than presently since you can't get 3HD creatures and need to burn a spell slot on it), and spells are overall much better for longterm buffing and much stronger overall.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2009-12-01 at 02:50 PM.
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
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  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Default Re: So my DM threw Savage Species down...

    You could take 2 levels in Monk for free Combat Expertise. Depending on your build, that might be worthwhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmex View Post
    Or should I got for Monk1/Ranger1/Soul Eater for 5+ level draining attacks on a charge?
    No, because an Anthropomorphic Giant Squid can do it better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thespianus View Post
    I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Default Re: So my DM threw Savage Species down...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Ehhh, they still have Wildshape and Natural Spell [MoTW] and can get 2xLevel of animal HD in companions (though only 1xLevel will follow); I personally find the 3.0 version to be slightly stronger than the 3.5.

    EDIT: I reckon I should explain my reasons:
    - Until late levels, it's rather trivial to find a solid animal companion. It's annoying, yes, but purely power-wise the fact that you can actually exceed the limit by 2x for tough dungeon instances and such means it's probably stronger that way.

    Generally, the best option powerwise in 3.5 is to switch to more powerful one as soon as they become available anyways. With Legendaries and Dires, you won't run out of options before 20 anyways, and in 3.0 you can always take multiples. Granted, the mechanics are more bothersome to RP since you have to dismiss companions constantly and such for it to truly work out, but powerwise it is stronger.
    - Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength and company are 1 hour/level and can be empowered and maximized. This means that instead of needing to buy stat boost items, casters can just buff themselves with these. This also means you don't really even care about Wilding Clasps. Oh, and you can Empower and Maximize them for ~+7 to stats.
    - I recall 3.0 Polymorph (and Wild Shape) granted you the Animal-type making you eligible for your own Animal Growths, among other things. That's a very strong spell.
    - You've got 3.0 Heal, which is a v. good spell, and Harm which is passable.
    - The standard Druid goodies are still there in Entangles, Transmute Rocks, Mists, Shapechanges and what-not. Further, Greater Magic Weapon is now a close range spell and thus eligible for Chain; very useful given the number of natural weapons especially with multiple ACs you may be dealing with.
    - Wild Shape is more limited off the bat, yes. You cannot acquire Dire-forms and there's no guideline on e.g. Dinosaurs. However, that's not that big a problem. While level 5 forms are mehhish (Leopard or arguably Deinonychus), you still get Bears on 8 and so on; the only option that's delayed is Dire Lion and given it's only +1 Str higher than standard Tiger, it's not that bad. Dire Bear is still right on schedule and after that you've got free reign. Sure, you lose versatility lacking Plant Wildshape (I think it's a feat in 3.0) but the ability is plenty good without it.


    So yeah, the Wild Shape is slightly worse in one, rather insignificant way but much stronger in a very significant way (Animal-type), animal companion is more bothersome but stronger most of the time (level 1 it's slightly worse than presently since you can't get 3HD creatures and need to burn a spell slot on it), and spells are overall much better for longterm buffing and much stronger overall.
    AC:
    All DM fiat. If the DM doesn't want me to get a dire cairbou or whatever, I won't have one.

    Metamagic on spells:
    Metamagic rods cost 2x in 3.0, and our DM only likes to hand out +2 swords as loot that sell for about 1/4 price. And starting at low levels, it's unlikely that I'll ever get to the point where I'll have a spell slot for empowered, maximized anything.

    Wildshape:
    No pounce, improved grab, or multiple attacks, because 3.0 polymorph was a pretty reasonable spell.

    By the time I can become a fairly decent animal and put animal growth on myself, a psychic warrior feral anthro whale will have pounce (3.0 pounce only happens once/combat, btw), gargantuan size, 9 NA, fast healing, improved grab, rake, and 34 str.

    Spells:
    Yeah, they're cool, but so is doing 50 damage/attack. I'm already playing a caster in another game, and druids aren't that great of gishes in 3.0. Their natural armor spell doesn't stack with existing natural armor bonuses, for instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by SurlySeraph View Post
    You could take 2 levels in Monk for free Combat Expertise. Depending on your build, that might be worthwhile.
    Ooh, good call. I'll look into that. With +6 wisdom & 40 feet of speed, wearing plate isn't necessary, either.

    No, because an Anthropomorphic Giant Squid can do it better.
    Fair enough.
    Last edited by Myrmex; 2009-12-01 at 03:18 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: So my DM threw Savage Species down...

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmex View Post
    AC:
    All DM fiat. If the DM doesn't want me to get a dire cairbou or whatever, I won't have one.
    Same really goes for 3.5; with Scrying-like effects in play, it should be rather trivial to hunt down whatever the hell you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmex View Post
    Metamagic on spells:
    Metamagic rods cost 2x in 3.0, and our DM only likes to hand out +2 swords as loot that sell for about 1/4 price. And starting at low levels, it's unlikely that I'll ever get to the point where I'll have a spell slot for empowered, maximized anything.
    *shrug* True; still, it's only level 4 to Empower them and that's generally +4-+6 (rolling 1 means only +2 but meh). And yeah, metamagic rods are expensive, but also less necessary due to the larger number of Hour/level buffs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmex View Post
    Wildshape:
    No pounce, improved grab, or multiple attacks, because 3.0 polymorph was a pretty reasonable spell.
    Huh? Quote from 3.0 PHB on Polymorph Other:
    "The polymorphed creature acquires the physical and natural abilities of the creature it has been polymorphed into while retaining its own mind. Physical abilities include natural size and Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores. Natural abilities include natural armor, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, swoop and rake, and constriction; but not petrification, breath weapons, energy drain, energy effect, etc.), and similar gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, etc.)."

    As you gain natural weapons, the rest doesn't really matter; you get all your natural weapons. Still, even without that, you have heavy-hitting options like Rhinoceros and Brown Bear on 8 that can make fine use of that one attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmex View Post
    By the time I can become a fairly decent animal and put animal growth on myself, a psychic warrior feral anthro whale will have pounce (3.0 pounce only happens once/combat, btw), gargantuan size, 9 NA, fast healing, improved grab, rake, and 34 str.

    Spells:
    Yeah, they're cool, but so is doing 50 damage/attack. I'm already playing a caster in another game, and druids aren't that great of gishes in 3.0. Their natural armor spell doesn't stack with existing natural armor bonuses, for instance.
    *shrug* As you will. I do believe you're selling their abilities short here though; if anything, I find 3.0 Druids to be better at gishing than 3.5s specifically thanks to the Animal-type. Level 9, you can easily jump into 40 Str or so along with really solid base AC and Con; Barkskin is the only thing you miss out on really, allowing for Monk's Belt (if Clasped) or Wilding Dragonhide Full-Plate (if not; without MoTW you'd need to stick to Barding stuck on afterwards I guess) along with Animated Shield, Deflections and Cat's Grace. And honestly, you'd play the abomination that is 3.0 Psychic Warrior? *shudder*

    But yeah, it's your character of course. I'll stop plugging Druid.

    EDIT: Oh yeah, 3.0 Animal Growth? I recall it doubles your HD or something ridiculous like that. Worth checking out.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2009-12-01 at 03:32 PM.
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
    SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Default Re: So my DM threw Savage Species down...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Same really goes for 3.5; with Scrying-like effects in play, it should be rather trivial to hunt down whatever the hell you want.
    It's what makes Kensai an attractive class in a game where the DM rigidly controls everything your character can't explicitly do by themselves.

    *shrug* True; still, it's only level 4 to Empower them and that's generally +4-+6 (rolling 1 means only +2 but meh). And yeah, metamagic rods are expensive, but also less necessary due to the larger number of Hour/level buffs.
    I'm just saying that the appeal of using metamagic on the Animal Characteristic spells is mitigated by the difficulty of doing it in my particular game.

    Huh? Quote from 3.0 PHB on Polymorph Other:
    "The polymorphed creature acquires the physical and natural abilities of the creature it has been polymorphed into while retaining its own mind. Physical abilities include natural size and Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores. Natural abilities include natural armor, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, swoop and rake, and constriction; but not petrification, breath weapons, energy drain, energy effect, etc.), and similar gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, etc.)."

    As you gain natural weapons, the rest doesn't really matter; you get all your natural weapons. Still, even without that, you have heavy-hitting options like Rhinoceros and Brown Bear on 8 that can make fine use of that one attack.
    Ah, you are right. It just doesn't let you use multiple limbs to get more attacks. Claw Claw Bite would be a go.

    *shrug* As you will. I do believe you're selling their abilities short here though; if anything, I find 3.0 Druids to be better at gishing than 3.5s specifically thanks to the Animal-type. Level 9, you can easily jump into 40 Str or so along with really solid base AC and Con; Barkskin is the only thing you miss out on really, allowing for Monk's Belt (if Clasped) or Wilding Dragonhide Full-Plate (if not; without MoTW you'd need to stick to Barding stuck on afterwards I guess) along with Animated Shield, Deflections and Cat's Grace. And honestly, you'd play the abomination that is 3.0 Psychic Warrior? *shudder*
    We're using EPH, actually. 3.0 psionics gives me a headache.

    But yeah, it's your character of course. I'll stop plugging Druid.
    I won't disagree with you that a full caster that has polymorphing built right into the class will be wtfbbq by level 10, but at low levels, it's going to be an underperforming caster, like most casters at those levels. Having just played a caster from 1st to 6th level, I really don't want to do it again. I don't want to have to wait 2 months before I get class features worth speaking of, especially struggling with an anthro bat for 6 levels before I can hang out in wolf shape.

    EDIT: Oh yeah, 3.0 Animal Growth? I recall it doubles your HD or something ridiculous like that. Worth checking out.
    Goddamn, that is crazy.

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    Default Re: So my DM threw Savage Species down...

    Ok, how can I get Ur-Priest into this build?
    I like spells a lot, and it gets decent HD & BAB.

    I need to get 8 ranks in spellcraft, 6 in bluff, 5 in arcana & the planes, and 8 in religion, which are all cross-class for me.

    What should I dip at ECL 5 to get the skills/skill points to get as early an entry to Ur-Priest as possible?

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Default Re: So my DM threw Savage Species down...

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmex View Post
    ...and said, "play whatever you want."

    I'm looking at a Feral Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale, for pure rollplaying purposes.

    Should I go spiked chain + improved trip & some size increases? We're playing in 3.0, complete with the insanity of 3.0 Knockdown. The problem with a tripper is having to start with 17 int, as feral gives me -4 int.

    Or should I got for Monk1/Ranger1/Soul Eater for 5+ level draining attacks on a charge?
    The stories I've heard about anthropomorphic whales...

    In short, this one party had an anthro whale fighter, who was incredibly unlucky as the player always rolled low. Eventually he died in combat and the party gave him a warriors burial by sending his body down a river. Later, when they arrived in town to collect their reward, the poor villagers threw them a magnificent feast.

    The meat was fatty but delicious. When asked, the poor villagers explained how they were blessed with food floating down river

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