A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Zilfana's Avatar

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    Default 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    I'm playing in a 4.0 campaign, and is there any feat in 4.0 that serves the purpose of weapon finesse, letting me replace strength with dex when using a light weapon?

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Cainen's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    No, because that's the purpose of the Rogue class. Melee Training does it for basic attacks, but powers aren't modified like that by anything short of homebrew, to my knowledge.

    Edit: Correcting the post.
    Last edited by Cainen; 2009-12-01 at 08:30 PM.
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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Shadow_Elf's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zilfana View Post
    I'm playing in a 4.0 campaign, and is there any feat in 4.0 that serves the purpose of weapon finesse, letting me replace strength with dex when using a light weapon?
    Melee Training: Dexterity. Only works for basic melee attacks, but that is the analog.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Haven's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    The Melee Training feat from PHB2 lets you replace Strength with any stat (including Dex). Only for basic attacks (though it works for all weapons, not just light), but generally your class powers let you use other stats for melee anyway.
    Last edited by Haven; 2009-12-01 at 08:25 PM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    Melee Training in PHB2 is the closest, but in general it's usually not worth it unless you're going to make a lot of opportunity attacks or have a leader who gives out basic attacks.

    edit: triple ninja'ed
    Last edited by nightwyrm; 2009-12-01 at 08:27 PM.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    Combat Training allows you to replace STR with any stat for basic melee attacks, however, to my knowledge, there's no way to make "Str vs X" powers into "Cha vs X" powers, if that's what you mean.

    EDIT: Crap, it's Melee training. I was ninja'd and wrong.
    Last edited by Sir_Elderberry; 2009-12-01 at 08:26 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Zilfana's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    Thanks, that will do.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    As others have said, Melee Training will allow you to use any weapon (not just light weapons) to use DEX as an attack stat. This only applies to basic attacks, including OAs and charges.

    The ability score you use for class attacks/powers depends on the class. Rogues are the only one I can think of right off hand which use DEX for melee, though.

    Depending on the class, your DM may homebrew swapping STR for DEX for class powers. Sometimes this is a good idea and sometimes not. A spear fighter probably shouldn't, because you already get bonuses for high DEX with a spear. A warlord, though, shouldn't have any large imbalance for using DEX over STR.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Elderberry View Post
    Combat Training allows you to replace STR with any stat for basic melee attacks, however, to my knowledge, there's no way to make "Str vs X" powers into "Cha vs X" powers, if that's what you mean.

    EDIT: Crap, it's Melee training. I was ninja'd and wrong.
    There's something to do with half-elves and/or bards that lets them use Cha for multiclass powers, I think. But that's about it.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    Quote Originally Posted by erikun View Post
    Depending on the class, your DM may homebrew swapping STR for DEX for class powers. Sometimes this is a good idea and sometimes not. A spear fighter probably shouldn't, because you already get bonuses for high DEX with a spear. A warlord, though, shouldn't have any large imbalance for using DEX over STR.
    It actually weakens a Tactical Warlord or an Int-focused Resourceful Warlord, since they're packing two abilities that boost the exact same defense and lose out on several useful feats meant for heavy weapon users.

    Usually, if you're looking for an agile fighter, the Rogue, Ranger, and Tempest Fighter are basically it, with only the Rogue being particularly handy with single melee weapons. (and then, only light blades without extra feats)

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    "My drill sergeant taught me how to use my charisma in battle! Watch as I heft this spear with the power of my ROGUEISH GRIN!"
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  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gpope View Post
    There's something to do with half-elves and/or bards that lets them use Cha for multiclass powers, I think. But that's about it.
    Combat Virtuoso, in (I think) Arcane Power. Lets the Bard use Charisma to attack for multiclass powers and Dilettante powers, though damage modifiers are unchanged.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    It actually weakens a Tactical Warlord or an Int-focused Resourceful Warlord, since they're packing two abilities that boost the exact same defense and lose out on several useful feats meant for heavy weapon users.
    Conversely, a DEX/CON Barbarian is stronger, because you're boosing initiative and reflex save over the STR/CON variety.

    Then again, a class that only needs a single stat isn't always a bad thing. I really like the Paladin because they can work just fine with only CHA (and a little WIS). I've run both a DEX/CHA Paladin and an INT/CHA one, and didn't run into any problems playing either.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi View Post
    "My drill sergeant taught me how to use my charisma in battle! Watch as I heft this spear with the power of my ROGUEISH GRIN!"
    I am so darned cool that you will lower your shield and expose the weaknesses of your armor!

    These are not the droids you're looking for.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andras View Post
    I am so darned cool that you will lower your shield and expose the weaknesses of your armor!

    These are not the droids you're looking for.
    If you're using Charisma as an attack, then it seems like opposite genders of the same race should get a +2 bonus against one another, no? jk.
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  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi View Post
    "My drill sergeant taught me how to use my charisma in battle! Watch as I heft this spear with the power of my ROGUEISH GRIN while you can't even see me because I'm hidden!"
    Fixed that for you
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  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Fixed that for you
    Yeah, but they're so charismatic that even though you can't see them you are aware of some nearby awesomeness.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drenn View Post
    If you're using Charisma as an attack, then it seems like opposite genders of the same race should get a +2 bonus against one another, no? jk.
    Errr... no.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: 4.0, No Weapon Finnesse?

    To summarize: the ability to use Dex to attack with melee weapons is generally handled through powers rather than feats, the main exception being the Melee Training feat, which lets you select the stat you use for basic attacks.

    The melee classes which have Dex as the primary stat are Rogue (PHB), Monk (PHB3 preview), and Assassin (Insider exclusive).

    Rangers, Tempest and Blade Fighters, and Whirling Barbarians also have Dex as secondaries, but use Strength for melee attacks. Predator Druids and Pursuit Avengers have Dex secondary too, but use Wis for melee attacks.

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