Which is better and why?

[Boostaloo]

Swift Hunter build (Scout5/Ranger15)

Swift Ambusher build (Scout19/Rogue1) I really don't know what the optima setup is

a combination of the two (Rogue2/Ranger2/Scout16) Or something along those lines.

[jiriku]

My money is on ranger for spell access.

[Cyclocone]

Well, a Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order would obviously have a reasonably large advantage over his feeble uncasting brethren.

But regarding Swift Hunter V. Swift Ambusher, Swift Hunter is better. In a way, it's what Rangers should have been all along.

[valadil]

Depends what you're trying to do.

I've seen a Swift Hunter make a very respectable melee character. I'm not sure if it was part of SH or some other feat, but the player was able to get his extra damage to apply to undead (I think he had to take them as a favored enemy).

I haven't seen a Swift Ambusher in the wild. From what I've heard you're better off going with minimal Scout levels, maximizing Rogue. Obviously this results in more of a skill monkey than the SH build.

So if you want to melee, go SH. If you want to deal with traps, SA. If you can fit them both, cool.

[sonofzeal]

I believe Swift Hunter can be Scout3/Ranger17, which helps a bit since BAB is higher. Also, Swift Ambusher needs to be progressed on the Rogue side, as it stacks for Skirmish already but not for Sneak Attack.

Swift Hunter has higher accuracy, better HP, better saves, and more magic

Swift Ambusher has noticeably higher damage and higher skills, and a better class skill list. They also have trouble getting both Skirmish and SA in the same round, though.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Wouldn't swift ambusher be better with scout/ninja..

travel devotion and the ninjas invis step with scout should work pritty well... Especialy if you take zen archery. you could focus on wis and some str pritty much...

actually that sounds like a great idea..
by level 6, going 3 scout and the rest ninja.. could get some decent skirmish/sudden strike dmg.


I've also seen some pretty devastating charger builds involving scout and rogue(at lower levels at least) especially when you charge into a flank.

[The Glyphstone]

Why would you go Scout 19/Rogue 1? Except for what class skills you have, that's literally no different than Scout 20 - the only Ambush feat you can actually use is Merciful Strike, and activating it makes it do nothing...

People should read Swift Ambusher. It doesn't advance sneak attack at all, only Skirmish, and it only works with Rogue. It's only useful for a low-Scout, high-Rogue levels build, and even then it's hard to get both types of damage consistently at the same time.

[Boostaloo]

It would be for the sneak attack damage. Perhaps I am mistaken, but if the character was Rogue1/Ranger1/Scout18 they could have both swift ambusher and swift hunter. If Improved skirmish was taken they could be doing 17d6+ per arrow of bonus damage when they get skirmish and sneak attack. Not to mention they could apply this damage to arcanists (which includes Dragons, Undead, and Constructs.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It would be for the sneak attack damage. Perhaps I am mistaken, but if the character was Rogue1/Ranger1/Scout18 they could have both swift ambusher and swift hunter. If Improved skirmish was taken they could be doing 17d6+ per arrow of bonus damage when they get skirmish and sneak attack. Not to mention they could apply this damage to arcanists (which includes Dragons, Undead, and Constructs.

Swift Ambusher requires Rogue levels in order to add SA. A Scout 3/Rogue 17 has the SA of a Rogue 17 and the Skirmish of a Scout 20.

[Boostaloo]

Really? I didn't see that in the feat description.

[Tavar]

Really? I didn't see that in the feat description.

It says that rogue and scout levels stack for determining Skirmish damage. Nowhere does it mention stacking for SA damage.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Swift Ambusher requires Rogue levels in order to add SA. A Scout 3/Rogue 17 has the SA of a Rogue 17 and the Skirmish of a Scout 20.

Well realy it just requires a class with SA(or SA equivelent in the case of SS) i belive.


You could also do scout 3/Spell thief... though i don't realy know why...

I believe scout 3/SA fighter x would work well. full bab and SA and Ambush

[Person_Man]

Either is playable and fun for most parties. But I think neither is particularly optimal. Both Swift Hunter and Swift Ambusher progress Skirmish. Skirmish is one of the weakest forms of bonus damage in the game.

First, you need to trigger it. This basically requires you to invest in some form of free movement, pounce, or Greater Manyshot. Just having good reach is not enough. Then you need to actually move 10 ft somehow every round. This is easy to do in the open, but can be difficult to pull of in a dungeon without a further investment (flight, climb speed, incorporealness, etc).

Second, it's Precision damage. So tons of enemies are immune unless you invest further resources in making them un-immune somehow. Swift Hunter helps with this a lot thanks to the Favored Enemy exclusion - but you don't start the game with 5 Favored Enemies. So a Scout 3/Ranger 5 might not have to worry about Undead and Constructs, but there are still plenty of immune creatures that the DM can pull out of his manuals that negate your investment.

Third, even if you have an easy time triggering it every turn, and you're fighting a non-immune creature, the bonus damage tops out at 5d6. 17.5 average extra damage per hit at 17th level is a joke. Craven (1 feat, no need to multi-class sub-optimally) gives you 17. And Skirmish, being bonus dice of damage, is not multiplied when you crit or when you use Spirited Charge, Headlong Rush, Battle Jump, etc.

Finally, and most importantly, by multi-classing into Scout you are giving up additional levels of Ranger or Rogue. This means lower level spells, a weaker Animal Companion, slower progression of Ranger abilities (bonus feats, Evasion, Hide in Plain Site) or fewer Special Abilities (which get a big power bump from the Savvy Rogue feat).

So if I had to choose, I'd choose Swift Hunter. But a better solution would be to just give Rangers Skirmish Progression for all of their Favored Enemies, or to give Rogues the Scout's high level Special Abilities (Flawless Stride, Hide in Plain Sight, Blind Sight, Free Movement, etc) in addition to their normal Special Abilities, or to make Scout's Skirmish damage progression the same as Sneak Attack.