A poisionous question

[BRC]

So I'm working on the next adventure I'm going to throw at my playthings PC's. And one of the monsters I want to use is the Fleshraker Dinosaur from MM3.
Those of you familiar with this particular CR2 beastie may know it has a rather nasty poison for a CR2 creature, and this poison triggers on any of it's natural attacks. Throw in it's rather nasty Leaping Pounce ability, and you've got a monster that can Full attack quite frequently.
Now, if a PC gets hit by 3 natural attacks, do they have to make 3 fort saves against the poison or take 3d6 dexterity damage now and another 3d6 damage later. Does this keep happening every round?
Am I throwing my 5 4th level PC's (Rogue, Ranger, Cleric, Rogue, Druid, Druid's Pet), none of whom have had to deal with poison yet, up against an interesting encounter, or against a poisonous deathtrap that will end with this rather dex-based party paralyzed or nearly useless for days? (Current plan is 3 Fleshrakers waiting in Ambush each ridden by a javelin tossing Goblin warrior 2)
I'm constantly worried about my combats taking too long, is there a way to cut down on excess rolling for fort saves.
Besides the poison, I really like the Fleshrakers. Do you think I could weaken or drop the poison and still keep the encounter challenging?

It should be noted that current preparations against this consist of the Cleric having prepared Lesser restoration once.

[Tiki Snakes]

From reputation of the little lizardy fellows, I'd say PC's are pretty doomed.

[hamishspence]

Drop the poison and it's a fair challenge (strong for its level, but not disastrously so)

As it is, it is famous for being way overpowered for an animal.

[drengnikrafe]

I don't know anything about the creature, so don't bite my head off when I make faulty assumptions about it.
Now, the 3 fleshrakers jump out, and will almost definitely hit the PCs in the surprise round (I think?), forcing 3 of them to make 3 fort saves. Joe Schmoe, the generic (non-melee) PC is likely to be hit because he has a bad fortitude save, and Goblins understand this. He then fails... probably 2 of his saves, I would say, and loses 6d6 (average: 21) points of dex. He's now down. Also, Jake Schmoe, the generic (melee) PC is likely to be hit because he looks imposing. He'll be flat-footed, and so he'll probably get hit... what, once or twice? So he'll probably have the poison applied once. That's still 10 dex damage (average). So, when the PCs roll for inititive, roughly half the party will be down, or approaching it.

If we say the CR is more reasonable when you take away the poison, then you still have an encounter that is reasonable for a 4th level party, IIRC.

In any case, the way I see it is if you throw the creatures at it as is, they will lie there, lacking any dex, until the cleric can get some back and cast neutralize poison. If they don't die before.

EDIT: Yeah... Okay, I was wrong, just like I figured. Sorry about wasting everyone's time.

[BRC]

Drop the poison and it's a fair challenge (strong for its level, but not disastrously so)

As it is, it is famous for being way overpowered for an animal.

Yeah, I think I'll do that. These things are tough enough without dealing massive amounts of dexterity damage.
I mean, they've got AC 20, Leaping Pounce (AKA DEATH), and enough hitpoints to stand a decent beating.

@ Dreng: The poison is 1d6 dex damage initial and secondary. My 3d6 example came from a PC being hit 3 times.

[Another_Poet]

Maybe have the fleshrakers and goblins charge the PCs from across an open ield. The PCs effectively have 1 or 2 rounds of actions before the fleshrakers are in melee range. This should even the odds.

But yeah, you might want to have a convincing reason ready why the goblins want to capture the paralysed 0-Dex PCs rather than feeding them to their dinos and taking their gear.

[Aharon]

alternatively, you could give clues to the PCs. Perhaps have them meet some less dangerous poisonous creature one or two encounters before the ambush happens, and let them make a knowledge check to find out that there are many poisonous creatures in the area and it might be wise to prepare for that.

[BRC]

Maybe have the fleshrakers and goblins charge the PCs from across an open ield. The PCs effectively have 1 or 2 rounds of actions before the fleshrakers are in melee range. This should even the odds.

But yeah, you might want to have a convincing reason ready why the goblins want to capture the paralysed 0-Dex PCs rather than feeding them to their dinos and taking their gear.

No, I like the Dino Ambush of Death. I think I'm just going to drop their poison altogether, and introduce my PC's to poison at a later time.
At most the surprise round will pin 3 PC's, effectively half the party (With the druid's bruiser of an animal companion), allowing the other three to lend support.

[Another_Poet]

No, I like the Dino Ambush of Death. I think I'm just going to drop their poison altogether, and introduce my PC's to poison at a later time.
At most the surprise round will pin 3 PC's, effectively half the party (With the druid's bruiser of an animal companion), allowing the other three to lend support.

That's cool. It might be fun to give a hint that nonmally fleshrakers have a wicked poison, but that these for some reason don't. If the goblins are questioned they might mention it (they removed the poison glands so the mounts would be safe to use? They milked the poison out that morning, for the tribe to use on arrows?) or a ranger/druid might know it with a knowledge check, or someone looking over the bodies might discover scars from removed poison glands - or poison glands that were recently milked - with a Heal or Search check.

That way you still have the chance to add in poisoned ones later without it being a total bait 'n' switch.

[BRC]

That's cool. It might be fun to give a hint that nonmally fleshrakers have a wicked poison, but that these for some reason don't. If the goblins are questioned they might mention it (they removed the poison glands so the mounts would be safe to use? They milked the poison out that morning, for the tribe to use on arrows?) or a ranger/druid might know it with a knowledge check, or someone looking over the bodies might discover scars from removed poison glands - or poison glands that were recently milked - with a Heal or Search check.

That way you still have the chance to add in poisoned ones later without it being a total bait 'n' switch.

Here's an explanation, the Goblins primarily use the Fleshrakers for hunting. If the Fleshraker's poison an animal lots of venom gets it, So much so that even cooking the meat dosn't get all the venom out most of the time, and it's impossible to tell if you've cooked the meat enough to make it not poison you, so rather than risk eating poisoned meat (especially with the bad fort saves Goblins tend to have), the goblins remove the Fleshraker's venom sacs at a young age.

[Another_Poet]

Here's an explanation, the Goblins primarily use the Fleshrakers for hunting. If the Fleshraker's poison an animal lots of venom gets it, So much so that even cooking the meat dosn't get all the venom out most of the time, and it's impossible to tell if you've cooked the meat enough to make it not poison you, so rather than risk eating poisoned meat (especially with the bad fort saves Goblins tend to have), the goblins remove the Fleshraker's venom sacs at a young age.

Ooh, I like your phlebotinum.

I would consider sayign they milk their poison sacs right before the hunt, though, as it would have the same practical effect but justify the goblins having big vats of fleshraker poison laying around

[Sliver]

Wait, so fleshrakers are evil right? Because they have poison, and its evil.. So you can't be an exalted fleshraker right?

[Krrth]

Wait, so fleshrakers are evil right? Because they have poison, and its evil.. So you can't be an exalted fleshraker right?

Actually, they're neutral. They don't have enough intelligence to be good, evil, exalted, vile, what have you. That might be a different scenario if someone were to use awaken animal on them.

[Sliver]

And undead don't have any intelligence to be evil, and they still are. If the fleshrakers use poison, they should be evil, at least by BoED standards..

[Duke of URL]

I'm constantly worried about my combats taking too long, is there a way to cut down on excess rolling for fort saves.

Yes. At the start of combat (or before, if you really want to make them nervous), just have everyone roll 20 d20s for you, and write them down so you can just check them off as you go.

[hamishspence]

"Animals are always neutral" overrides "Poison is evil"

[Sliver]

"Using poison is evil" sounds just as general to me as "animals are always neutral" .. Anyway, forget it, poison is natural, and as such, should be just as neutral as any other animal that uses it. It is just silly to say that poison is evil and go make good poison, and good undead..

[awa]

I think the poison use is waved for creatures who naturally have poison for example couatl are good aligned.

[BRC]

Also "Poison is Evil" makes as much sense as "Swords are evil". They both do the same thing, it's just different methods. One can poison a tyrant just as easily as a saint. In fact, poisons may be less evil than swords, because one can easily incapacitate and disable a foe with poison (Knockout poison, or any type of poison besides Con Damage) without killing them. While it's technically possible to knock somebody out with a sword, it's tricky.

[Ladorak]

And undead don't have any intelligence to be evil, and they still are. If the fleshrakers use poison, they should be evil, at least by BoED standards..

It's a stupid book, I think we all agree on that.

But undead are Evil because simply by existing they are slowly destroying all life that will ever exist. They're like D&D's fossil fuels.

[Levithix]

In my opinion, no action is inherently evil, intent is 9/10ths of alignment.

[hamishspence]

Also "Poison is Evil" makes as much sense as "Swords are evil". They both do the same thing, it's just different methods. One can poison a tyrant just as easily as a saint. In fact, poisons may be less evil than swords, because one can easily incapacitate and disable a foe with poison (Knockout poison, or any type of poison besides Con Damage) without killing them. While it's technically possible to knock somebody out with a sword, it's tricky.

However (at least in modern times) international law looks at things differently. Poisoned weapons, and chemical weapons, are usually banned.

You could make the case that D&D poisons are often incapacitating agents (a bit like tear gas or anaesthetic darts) but I can see where they are coming from.

[hamishspence]

It's a stupid book, I think we all agree on that.

More a good book with a few not-so-good ideas.

Given the amount of moral dissonance in standard D&D- it at least tried to cut down on "slaughtering orcs down to the last baby is OK"

Especially given that in 3rd ed/3.5 ed D&D, most of the evil races are "usually X evil" or "often X evil"

[Ladorak]

More a good book with a few not-so-good ideas.

Given the amount of moral dissonance in standard D&D- it at least tried to cut down on "slaughtering orcs down to the last baby is OK"

Especially given that in 3rd ed/3.5 ed D&D, most of the evil races are "usually X evil" or "often X evil"

It's 'usually' or 'always' isn't it? Anyway, you're kinda right. Can we agree it's a good idea badly carried out? Maybe even a necessary idea badly carried out.

[hamishspence]

necessary idea poorly carried out, I'd say.

Given the way the start of SoD looks, I'd say The Giant might feel this way as well.

Orcs and Ogres are Often, goblins and drow Usually.

TV Tropes quotes on BoED (the politer ones)

"BoED goes into some depth on how to be Lawful Good without being an idiot"

and, on it's heavy emphasis on mercy, accepting surrender, etc

"Guess WoTC thought it was more important to avoid being Miko Miyazaki than to avoid being Piffany"

[awa]

To the topic at hand if the rouge or ranger scout ahead and are able to detect the flesh rippers before the flesh rippers detect them this is a vastly more fair fight.

The flesh ripper has no ranks in spot or listen and the warrior likely wont have many as well. the flesh rippers have a good hide but no move silently so they will have to sit in position and wait for the pcs to get close they cant move in on their own. and more importantly the goblins probably don't have a spectacular hide or spot what with their warrior levels.

So if your party rouge and or ranger regularly scout ahead of the party this shouldn't be unstoppable the flesh rippers biggest strength by far is their ability to charge (and all the crazy extras that come with it), if they are the ones being surprised they are vastly more manageable (still much stronger then their cr suggest but beatable) they just need to know not to get within 30 feet of it until their ready to attack(scent).

[Another_Poet]

Also, another though, if the fleshrakers have something to hide behind in the first place, they won't be able to charge on the surprise round. They'll have an obstacle between themselves and the PCs.

[awa]

they could be hiding behind like a fallen log then just jump over it (they have an excellent jump). also stuff like leaves in a forest could reduce visibility and give concealment with out preventing a charge.

[Vizzerdrix]

And undead don't have any intelligence to be evil, and they still are. If the fleshrakers use poison, they should be evil, at least by BoED standards..

Poison isn't evil. Sorry. And screw the Book of Goody Two Shoes. you can't even sneeze without some pally crying evil by that things standards.


Now then, I wish my DM would grow a pair and throw something like this at us. Kudos to you for keeping things fun

I just hope your players end the fight with three rays of stupidity ^_^

[BRC]

Also, another though, if the fleshrakers have something to hide behind in the first place, they won't be able to charge on the surprise round. They'll have an obstacle between themselves and the PCs.

Their in a Jungle. I assume they are going to be hiding in the brush and undergrowth and shadows, then jump out for some PC nuggets.

Any advice on what the goblins should be doing? I considered giving them Lances, but that seems kind of redundant and not with the theme. Currently I'm thinking Javelins or Tanglefoot Bags. Keeping the PC's busy while their pets handle the fighting.
Since their Ride checks probably can't beat the Fleshripper's natural AC, I might not give them mounted combat, meaning they could use Nets or Bolos.